Betrayals on the Battlefield.

[Commander]

Are there any famous historical betrayals that happened on the Battlefield. I'm not sure if this happened or now, but in Braveheart, the king of Scotland was seen on the side of the British in one of the battles.

Did this happen often? Are there any famous ones?

[Belisarius]

Are there any famous historical betrayals that happened on the Battlefield. I'm not sure if this happened or now, but in Braveheart, the king of Scotland was seen on the side of the British in one of the battles.

Did this happen often? Are there any famous ones?

Manzikert 1071AD Byzantines vs Turks. The largest army ever assembled by the Byzantines led by the emperor himself, Romanus Diogenes attacked a Turkish army led by Alp Arslan somewhere near lake Van. The turks were in trouble; Byzantines were well used to horse archer armies and had perfected tactics against them.

Their army formed two lines, several hundred yards apart. The weaker second line was supposed to mirror the movements of the first, making it impossible for the light horse archers to outflank the "attack" line without being attacked in turn by the second. This had always been succesful in previous encounters.

On this occasion, the second line was led by an imperial relative, Andronicus Dukas, who wanted the throne for himself. No surprise then, that the second line failed to support the first, and this was surrounded and destroyed.

The Turks took over all the Byzantine lands in Asia minor. This battle was the death knell of the Byzantine empire, comparable with Teutoburgerwald, and Adrianople, the empire never recovered although it was to stumble on until 1453. This battle also set in motion the circumstances that led to the Crusades.

[cptJACK]

Paris betrayed Menelaus by stealing Helen from him. It didn't happen on the battlefield, but it did cause on hell of a big war.

[Melisende]

Stanley's betrayal of Richard III.

[heikstheo]

Paris betrayed Menelaus by stealing Helen from him. It didn't happen on the battlefield, but it did cause on hell of a big war.This was hardly a "betrayal." You can only be a traitor to your liege lord.

[Melisende]

And yes, Robert the Bruce did fight on the side of the English - many Scots did as their owned estates on both sides of the border. very similar situation with the Anglo-Normans - estates in Normandy and England - you had to chose you battles carefully.

[gashead]

i guess u could say that the russians betrayed the polish in 1944 during the warsaw uprising. they were inside artillery range but did nothing to help and even refused the british to refuel so they could drop weapons and supplies

[Komrade]

i guess u could say that the russians betrayed the polish in 1944 during the warsaw uprising. they were inside artillery range but did nothing to help and even refused the british to refuel so they could drop weapons and supplies

I wouldn't think of that as a betrayal some much as the Soviets just being the Soviets. Stalin and company knew Poland would be a lot easier to control if all those uppity Polish nationals were crushed by the Germans and heck, if they kill some Germans thats a few less the Soviets would have to kill themselves.

[Belisarius]

I wouldn't think of that as a betrayal some much as the Soviets just being the Soviets. Stalin and company knew Poland would be a lot easier to control if all those uppity Polish nationals were crushed by the Germans and heck, if they kill some Germans thats a few less the Soviets would have to kill themselves.

Yes, but that didn't work too well either. There was an anti-Communist guerilla war in Poland up to the 1950's.

[gashead]

others i can think of would be the italian defection in 1943. and also the one by one turning of finland and the baltic states against germany as the russians approached.

[Dr Realism]

In 751, at the battle of Talas, the Qarluks betrayed the Tang Army leading to their defeat by the Arabs.

November 2001, The Afghan Warlords betrayed the US at the battle of Tora Bora.

In 670 the Shilla Dynasty betrayed the Tang Dynasty and forced them out of the Southern and Central Korean Peninsula

[Nikd]

1071 Battle of Mantzikert, the 2nd i command general spread intensive false news that the 1st battle line is broken thus causing a massive retreat from the 2nd line and disorganization of the whole army.

[Belisarius]

1071 Battle of Mantzikert, the 2nd i command general spread intensive false news that the 1st battle line is broken thus causing a massive retreat from the 2nd line and disorganization of the whole army.

Nah! Got there before you! :p:D [see post #2 on this thread]

[Nikd]

Nah! Got there before you! :p:D [see post #2 on this thread]

Oops ! :eek:
Missed it:p
By the way this battle is one of my favorite themes.

It's my, my, MY :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:


Thanks Belisarius ;)

[oldnavyguy]

Was not the Battle of Sekigahara (sp?) not won by the Tokugawa faction due to a betrayal?

[Belisarius]

Was not the Battle of Sekigahara (sp?) not won by the Tokugawa faction due to a betrayal?

I looked it up, it certainly was. Long time no hear from you, welcome back.

[galteeman]

the most famous betrayal in ireland was henry luttrell at the battle of aughrim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aughrim). he was in the pay of the enemy and his desertion of his post with his troops at the vital moment was the main cause of the defeat which changed the course of irish history.

[Toltec]

The French Army's surprise as they found out that the troops Napoleon had told them were Grouchy's reinforcements, were infact Prussians.

[avon]

And yes, Robert the Bruce did fight on the side of the English - many Scots did as their owned estates on both sides of the border. very similar situation with the Anglo-Normans - estates in Normandy and England - you had to chose you battles carefully.

I agree, but, I wonder if we who live in a post-Nationalism world attach more significance to this situation that those gallant gents did in the middle ages!:confused:

[haidang309]

Maybe the most well-known traitors in the Communist bloc:

Vlasov, who betrayed the Red Army and commanded a German Army made of Russian POWs and White Russians. In fact, he turned his gun after realizing the bitter reality of communism :D

or Trotsky, as Stalin regarded him as the worst traitor to the communism. In fact, Trotsky was still a communist, but not stalinist. :confused:

[Jonathan4290]

The Huai Hai Campaign during the Chinese Civil War had quite a few defections. Didn't an entire army defect to the Communists?

[hadrianus]

The French Army's surprise as they found out that the troops Napoleon had told them were Grouchy's reinforcements, were infact Prussians.

No, Grouchy was no traitor. He was lacking experience and initiative. He was a very good leader of cavalry divisions, but to command a army corp was too much for him. Old Blucher fooled him... leaving in front of him only a few man and instead of attacking right away, Grouchy lost a lot of time forming a line of battle...meanwhile Blucher went to Waterloo and ......you all know the rest.

[Toltec]

No, Grouchy was no traitor. He was lacking experience and initiative. He was a very good leader of cavalry divisions, but to command a army corp was too much for him. Old Blucher fooled him... leaving in front of him only a few man and instead of attacking right away, Grouchy lost a lot of time forming a line of battle...meanwhile Blucher went to Waterloo and ......you all know the rest.


Who said Grouchy was a traitor?

More careful reading is needed I think.

[hadrianus]

Who said Grouchy was a traitor?

More careful reading is needed I think.

Yes....it is

[Fluer_de_lis]

Richard the Lionhearted betrayed Barbarossa, twice.

[Naomasa298]

The Battle of Sekigahara 1600.

Prior to the battle, Kobayakawa Hideaki, commander of a large contingent of Western troops, had indicated to the leader of the Eastern forces, Tokugawa Ieyasu, that he was willing to defect.

During the battle itself, Kobayakawa was hesistant to act, until Tokugawa ordered a volley fired at his troops to spur them into action. This caused Kobayakawa to make up his mind, and charged the forces of Western daimyo Otani Yo****sugu in the rear. This also caused other defections amongst the western troops and turned the tide of the battle.

[Shadow Dragon]

I forget the specifics, but I remember hearing about a battle between Turkey/Ottoman Empire and the Mongolians. I think it was the Mongolian kingdom under Timur. Anyways, the Turks went out to the border between the nations, only to have the Mongolian army go around them and head to a major city in Asia Mino (possibly the capital of the Turks). The turkish army had to do a forced march, only to find the Mongolians weren't actually laying siege to the city, but rather just waiting for the turkish army to get there. The Mongolians won and battle pretty easily and during the fighting, one sultan and his battalion of soldiers switched side, joing the Mongolians.

[Ri Fhionngaill]

but in Braveheart, the king of Scotland was seen on the side of the British in one of the battles.

Just semantics, but Britain didn't exist. Britain is a union between Scotland and England, founded by the former, in 1603 (or 1707, depending on your definition of what a sovereign state is).

The MacMartins (a part of Clan Cameron, then a confederation, the captain of which was Domhnall Dubh) betrayed Alasdair, Lord of the Isles, in Lochaber, and his army dissolved. He was captured by the Scots, and it took another three military campaigns (by the brilliant Domhnall Ballach and Alasdair Carrach) to secure his official release.

[Salah ad-Din]

Just semantics, but Britain didn't exist. Britain is a union between Scotland and England, founded by the former, in 1603 (or 1707, depending on your definition of what a sovereign state is).

The MacMartins (a part of Clan Cameron, then a confederation, the captain of which was Domhnall Dubh) betrayed Alasdair, Lord of the Isles, in Lochaber, and his army dissolved. He was captured by the Scots, and it took another three military campaigns (by the brilliant Domhnall Ballach and Alasdair Carrach) to secure his official release.

I don't know much about Wallace; was he betrayed at Falkirk as depicted in Braveheart?

[Naomasa298]

Just semantics, but Britain didn't exist. Britain is a union between Scotland and England, founded by the former, in 1603 (or 1707, depending on your definition of what a sovereign state is).


As I understand it, up until 1707, Scotland and England were only joined by personal union - it didn't become a single kingdom until the Act of Union that you refer to. In the same way that Hanover was in personal union with Britain through George I until 1814 - I don't believe Great Britain and Hanover could be considered a single sovereign state, so I'd apply the same definition to Scotland and England.

Sorry, being picky again.

[sylla1]

Are there any famous historical betrayals that happened on the Battlefield. I'm not sure if this happened or now, but in Braveheart, the king of Scotland was seen on the side of the British in one of the battles.

Did this happen often? Are there any famous ones?
Braveheart was wrong; Robert the Bruce remained on the Scottish side and didn't fight in Falkirk (1298).

Naturally, all's fair in war & realpolitik; loyalty is entirely secondary.

However, most of the examples mentioned in this thread would probably not qualify for the OP requirement ("on the battlefield"); even in Manzikert the defection was reportedly the day before the battle.

A good example would be the Battle of Leipzig, October 16-19, 1813; the Saxon army began the battle on Napoleon's side, but it defected in October 18 and therefore it ended this same battle fighting against its former allies.

[Ri Fhionngaill]

I don't know much about Wallace; was he betrayed at Falkirk as depicted in Braveheart?

No. Braveheart, Highlander, etc. are complete fantasy. Only the events depicted actually took place, and even then there's usually a lot of errors. I'd use them as inspiration for a sitcom before I used them as a historical source.

[Chookie]

I don't know much about Wallace; was he betrayed at Falkirk as depicted in Braveheart?
It's a good story, but I doubt it. While the Scottish nobles were out for their own profit that's normal. While the cavalry did bugger off sharpish (as I would have) that was just self-preservation. The infantry didn't have the ability to evade they just had to stand there and take what was coming.

I sometimes despair at the adulation of Wallace. He was, and it can't be denied, an exceptionally good guerilla commander, but he wasn't a battlefield commander - that accolade should go to Sir Andrew de Moray - the man won (and died) at Stirling Bridge.

[Salah ad-Din]

I sometimes despair at the adulation of Wallace. He was, and it can't be denied, an exceptionally good guerilla commander, but he wasn't a battlefield commander - that accolade should go to Sir Andrew de Moray - the man won (and died) at Stirling Bridge.

I've read a bit about de Moray. His loss was a tragedy that came far too soon.

[okamido]

Was not the Battle of Sekigahara (sp?) not won by the Tokugawa faction due to a betrayal?

An actual thing of beauty. When Kobayakawa Hideaki, of the West, decided to join the Eastern Armies, but hesitated at the moment of battle, Ieayasu ordered his arquebuses to open fire on him so that he could make his decision. Kobayakawa got off the fence and turned on his Western allies, with four more Western Army Daimyo deserting to Ieayasu when they saw what was happening.

[Melisende]

Stephen, Count of Blois at the siege of Antioch. His reporting that all was lost sent the army of the Byzantine Emperor back to Constantinople and thus prolonged the siege.

[Lawnmowerman]

Battle of Bryn Glas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bryn_Glas

Was a battle fought in Wales in 1402 where the invading English under Sir Edmund Mortimer were attacking a Welsh army commanded by Owain Glyndŵr (http://www.historum.com/wiki/Owain_Glynd%C5%B5r), on top of a hill.

They had however rather stupidly hired some Welsh longbow men, who they positioned on their right flank, they then found themselves subjected to a piont blank volley from these Longbow men at exactly the same moment the Welsh charged down on them from above. EPIC BETRAYAL.

Then to make it even it even more betrayley (Is that even a word) King Henry IV refused to pay a ransom for Sir Edmund Mortimer as he had a better claim to thethrone than he did so Sir Edmund Mortimer ended up fighting with Owain Glyndwr against King Henry IV.

EPIC BETRAYALS

[Thegn Ansgar]

The loss of Shu control of Jingzhou province in 219. Guan Yu was formerly in control of the province, and was in a campaign against the Wei state. Shu was allied with Wu at this point (though Wu had already attacked Jing in 215, but a settlement was reached and the alliance was re-established).

Guan Yu was repulsed in his campaign by a superior general of Wei, but that itself is not the problem. But before I mention that, I must mention that there were two officers under Guan Yu who had failed to perform their duty. These were longstanding officers, who were with him and Liu Bei (the liege of Shu) for over 25 years. Guan Yu threatened to punish them when he returned from the campaign (common thing in China at the time. Basically it was a warning which said "I'm giving you a chance to redeem yourself.")

So while Guan Yu was campaigning against Wei, Wu invaded for a second time. That itself would not have been so disastrous, had these two generals Mi Fang and Fu Shiren not betrayed Guan Yu, by surrendering the control of their cities to Wu, without a fight really.

So it's two betrayals, one from an ally, and one from officers to their liege lord.

[pablo668]

My list of what the movie Braveheart got right.

There was a guy called William Wallace.

That's about it really, and even there the fffed a lot up.

From what I have read of Robert the Bruce, he wasn't at Falkirk. At that time the Bruces weren't particularly active in the wars of independence, due to Wallace and the nobles ostensibly fighting for King John (Balliol, Toom Tabard).

The Scottish Lords (In cavalry mainly) did fight at Falkirk and did as well as they could but were completely outmatched by the English Heavy Cavalry. It is said some of the lords dismounted and tried to enter the Scots schiltrons (spear rings) but once a spear ring is formed it can be difficult to break and the spear men were unwilling.

The Scots spear rings had stood up to a couple heavy cavalry charges from memory.

After chasing of the Scottish horse the english archers were free to ply their trade at the defenceless scottish spear rings until sufficiently weakened. Then it was a matter for the Cavalry and possibly the men-at-arms to go in and clean up.

At the time the Loyalties of the Scottish lords (who were Norman scots, not clans....grrrr) were very much divided as most hand land and titles on both sides of the border, not to mention familial loyalties and alliances.

I want both Mel Gibson and Randal Wallace to die in a fire for that film.

[markdienekes]

I couldn't care about the accuracy of Braveheart, it was an entertaining film with brutal and brilliant fight scenes (Some battle scenes are so completely realistic, the only plausible explanation is that the actors were actually killed. Now that is dedication to the role!) with great cinematography and acting. The late Patrick McGoohan should have got a supporting Oscar for that role!
Though I can see where you're coming from. They could still have made a great, historically accurate film instead!

Anyhow, I feel Muttines betrayal of Hannibal and Carthage was quite a bad one and led to the Roman capture of Sicily.

Theodor Mommsen tells us, in his classic work The History of Rome, Book III, Chapter VI,

"Sicily thus appeared lost to the Carthaginians; but the genius of Hannibal exercised even from a distance its influence there. He despatched to the Carthaginian army, which remained at Agrigentum in perplexity and inaction under Hanno and Epicydes, a Libyan cavalry officer Muttines, who took the command of the Numidian cavalry, and with his flying squadrons, fanning into an open flame the bitter hatred which the despotic rule of the Romans had excited over all the island, commenced a guerilla warfare on the most extensive scale and with the happiest results; so that he even, when the Carthaginian and Roman armies met on the river Himera, sustained some conflicts with Marcus Marcellus himself successfully. The relations, however, which prevailed between Hannibal and the Carthaginian council, were here repeated on a small scale. The general appointed by the council pursued with jealous envy the officer sent by Hannibal, and insisted upon giving battle to the proconsul without Muttines and the Numidians. The wish of Hanno was carried out, and he was completely beaten. Muttines was not induced to deviate from his course; he maintained himself in the interior of the country, occupied several small towns, and was enabled by the not inconsiderable reinforcements which joined him from Carthage gradually to extend his operations. His successes were so brilliant, that at length the commander-in-chief, who could not otherwise prevent the cavalry officer from eclipsing him, deprived him summarily of the command of the light cavalry, and entrusted it to his own son. The Numidian, who had now for two years preserved the island for his Carthagnian masters, had the measure of his patience exhausted by this treatment. He and his horsemen who refused to follow the younger Hanno entered into negotiations with the Roman general Marcus Valerius Laevinus and delivered to him Agrigentum. Hanno escaped in a boat, and went to Carthage to report to his superiors the disgraceful high treason of Hannibal's officer; the Carthaginian garrison in the town was put to death by the Romans, and the citizens were sold into slavery..."

Hanno was a jealous idiot for sure.

[Cicero]

Italy in WWI. She was one of the original of the Triple Alliance with Germany and Austria-Hungary and changed when the pickings seemed better with the Allied Powers.

[Whyte]

Richard the Lionhearted betrayed Barbarossa, twice.

I am unaware of the incidents you are refering to... Barbarossa and Richard never met during the 3rd crusade, due to the fact that Barbarossa managed to die along the way.

[sturm]

I am unaware of the incidents you are refering to... Barbarossa and Richard never met during the 3rd crusade, due to the fact that Barbarossa managed to die along the way.
Maybe he meant king Philip II of France, with whom king Richard I had confrontations and problems. And eventually Philip II have left the Holy Lands, and got back to France leaving Richard I in the Holy Land.

[Thegn Ansgar]

Maybe he meant king Philip II of France, with whom king Richard I had confrontations and problems. And eventually Philip II have left the Holy Lands, and got back to France leaving Richard I in the Holy Land.

I believe he means Henry the Lion, who was Barbarossa's cousin. Though Henry never betrayed Frederick (so Fluer_de_lis probably got that from the video game Age of Empires 2).