What happened to Greek Fire?

[tedkaw]

Okay, we all know today that Greek Fire was a flamable weapon which had properties similar to Napalm. It was a dark liquid which, when on fire would burn even in the water. My question is, when was it stopped being produced by the Byzantine Empire? Did the secrets vanish with the sack of 1204? Was it before when the Navy was almost completely disbanded due to a financial crisis? Or did they even have it all the way up to 1453?

[old_abe]

Wiki states that the Byzantine used Greek Fire as late as the Fourth Crusades, in 1201-1204. So I would guess they they did not use it all the way up to 1453.

I'm not sure exactly what happened to it or how it's secrets were lost.

[Lord_Cronus]

You could argue that it had been used all the way up till Vietnam. Napalm is a form of Greek Fire.

[Nikd]

When a man becomes Emperor of the Easter Roman Empire he swore 3 things, or better had not the right to do :
1. Never surrender Konstantinopel
2. Never to leave the orthodox - christian dogma
3. Never to give the secret of Greek Fire.

The engineers who manufactured this stuff where in whole empire a very small number of humans that worked under strict security conditions and where high ttrusted, never the secret got out from them.
It was maybe the greatest of the secrets of Byzantium, it's consistence was so difficult and complicated that (in that time) was impossible to analyze.
So after the fall of Konstantinopel the last Emperor simply took the secret in his grave.
It's forgotten.
Just as so many things in history.

[Commander]

So the development of Greek Fire was sort of like an ancient version of the Manhattan Project

[Ymeto]

When a man becomes Emperor of the Easter Roman Empire he swore 3 things, or better had not the right to do :
1. Never surrender Konstantinopel
2. Never to leave the orthodox - christian dogma
3. Never to give the secret of Greek Fire.


I never knew that the emperor's had to swear never to give the secret away, that is really interesting.

I have tried explaining Greek Fire to people before and it is funny because they don't understand how something like that can be lost. I have actually had people think I am lying because they think with technology today we should be able to discover it.

[Nikd]

And it is discovered in one form it's called Napalm, and yes it was a "Manhattan project", this weapon destroyed twice the Arab fleet in 687 ac and 717 a.c in the siege of Konstatinopel although the "Byzantines" were greatly outnumbered, the special ships that were designed "Sifonia" had an Lt. Captain only for use this weapon and higly trained sailors especially this "artillery" officer was repsected and able to reach high ranks in the fleet.

[heikstheo]

I never knew that the emperor's had to swear never to give the secret away, that is really interesting.

I have tried explaining Greek Fire to people before and it is funny because they don't understand how something like that can be lost. I have actually had people think I am lying because they think with technology today we should be able to discover it.What do we know, historically, about Greek Fire? Why can't we re-discover it with modern science and technology?

[heikstheo]

You could argue that it had been used all the way up till Vietnam. Napalm is a form of Greek Fire.How is napalm "a form of Greek Fire"?

[Nikd]

The answer why Greek Fire is not rediscovered is that after the invention and use of gunpowder it was simply obsolete, and Napalm do bigger damage.
The idea of using napalm came from Greek Fire the idea is the same : A composition of highly flammable materiels that can't be extinguished and cause great physical and morale damage to personnel, that's why Lord_Cronus speaks about "a form of Greek Fire"

[heikstheo]

The answer why Greek Fire is not rediscovered is that after the invention and use of gunpowder it was simply obsolete, and Napalm do bigger damage.
The idea of using napalm came from Greek Fire the idea is the same : A composition of highly flammable materiels that can't be extinguished and cause great physical and morale damage to personnel, that's why Lord_Cronus speaks about "a form of Greek Fire"Do we have enough info now that an historian could either hire a chemist buddy or get a chemistry degree himself/herself and then spend how ever much time in the laboratory and one day announce that he/she/they has/have found the chemical formula for Greek Fire? What are the good books about the history of Greek Fire?

[Nikd]

^^ As i have write in a post above : "Ygron Pir" - Greek Fires was ultra top secret, a Manhattan project in his time.

[luckybird]

hello everyone:)

[amalia1985]

Could it be that it was destroyed on purpose, so as not to fall in the hands of potential enemies?

[stung]

I never knew that the emperor's had to swear never to give the secret away, that is really interesting.

I have tried explaining Greek Fire to people before and it is funny because they don't understand how something like that can be lost. I have actually had people think I am lying because they think with technology today we should be able to discover it.
Greek fire was the only thing the byzantines had that worked,their armies were crap and they had to have something in order to protect themselves

[Lucius]

Hello, luckybird.

[Melisende]

Amalia,

You may have just hit on it. If knowledge of the making of "Greek-fire" was limited or restricted to a select few, then maybe it "transmitted" via oral tradition and not written down, so as to preserve its secrecy.

No apprentice, no transmission of knowledge. And so it just died out ...... I would hate to think, though, that the last "Greek-fire" maker met his end via unnnatural means so as to preserve its secret.

[Belisarius]

Do we have enough info now that an historian could either hire a chemist buddy or get a chemistry degree himself/herself and then spend how ever much time in the laboratory and one day announce that he/she/they has/have found the chemical formula for Greek Fire? What are the good books about the history of Greek Fire?

The best I've come across is "A History of Greek Fire and Gunpowder" by J R Partington. Last I heard, it was out of print, but some libraries may have copies or you could try Ebay.

As a matter of interest, the Byzantines called it "Sea Fire". I think it was a development of 5th century incendiaries as invented by the Romans during the reign of Anastasius I [491-518CE]. The Sassanians also used a similar mixture during the siege of Petra in 551CE. It was used at least as late as 1200, and if the secret was lost in 1204, variants were used thereafter by Arabs, Europeans and Chinese.

[amalia1985]

Amalia,

You may have just hit on it. If knowledge of the making of "Greek-fire" was limited or restricted to a select few, then maybe it "transmitted" via oral tradition and not written down, so as to preserve its secrecy.

No apprentice, no transmission of knowledge. And so it just died out ...... I would hate to think, though, that the last "Greek-fire" maker met his end via unnnatural means so as to preserve its secret.



Exactly, Melisende. It would be cruel, certainly, but then again, there are many many cases throughout History where "transgressive" (if I may use the word) means were put in action for the sake of one's country. Since the days of high- school when we used to study the Byzantine period, the idea of "necessary destruction" seemed the most prominent to me.

[Melisende]

As a matter of interest, the Byzantines called it "Sea Fire". I think it was a development of 5th century incendiaries as invented by the Romans during the reign of Anastasius I [491-518CE]. The Sassanians also used a similar mixture during the siege of Petra in 551CE. It was used at least as late as 1200, and if the secret was lost in 1204, variants were used thereafter by Arabs, Europeans and Chinese.


From another Froum that I am a member of, I was recently informed that the Chinese were using something akin to a sea-mine around the 12-13th century.

Is it at all possible that the "contents" of these aqautic mines could have been "Greek" or "Sea Fire" ???

[amalia1985]

And it would be interesting to find out how this knowledge was transported from the one to the other.