Constantine's vision

[Commander]

What do you make of Constantine's vision of the holy cross when he looked into the setting sun at Lilvian Bridge? The vision gave him inspiration and his army ultimately won the battle.

Do you think he really saw something in the sun? Wasn't he a pagan before seeing this vision?

[tedkaw]

He probably saw something, but I would be a bit more skeptic. He could have seen a reflection or something.

As far as I know Constantine was looking for a sign from God... if you go out looking for one, you're more likely to find one... or make one up.

[Fishystick]

Well, his mother was a catholic. But perhaps he held a cross up at the sun, then pulled it away. Thus causing that a cross apeared in the sun. But maybe he did. No saying. :D

[Nikd]

Well un that times even a dream from the emperor was a fact "Oohh, i saw i dream yesterday night that we marched in a big road to Rome and voila a BIG eagle stood over my head pointing me this point, so here we make battle and destroy our enemies!!!", so if Konstantine says that he saw the sign then simply he see it.

[papaya]

The story of Constantine's vision was written by Eusebius later that century, and anytime I read "Eusebius wrote . . ." I take it with a grain of salt. Now Lactantius, who was a member of Constantine's household, wrote that the night before the Battle of Milvian Bridge, Constantine had a dream that all his soldiers, who had the icon of Mithras emblazoned on their shields, won the victory. That icon just happens to be the sigil later adopted by the Christians: the chi-rho sign. And as a matter of course, all his soldiers were Mithras worshipers and had the icon on their shields. Naturally, Constantine thought Mithras was blessing his endeavor in the dream. It wasn't a sign from Christ in the sky. It was a prophetic dream given by Contantine's own deity. I imagine that on awakening, he was totally charged up and raring to go!

[CelticBard]

I think Constantine was a crafty politician and a good opportunist who knew when to exploit something, i.e. Christianity. Most of his troops were probably Christian and he knew it, so he decided to let them paint their shields with the Rho, the Greek P, which was one of the symbols of Christianity at the time. I was at the Vatican and overheard a guide telling tourists a "Catholic history lesson" about Constantine, it made me shudder, people actually think he was Christian, he just liked having control so he allowed his people to be Christian and oversaw all their meetings and debates. Constantine wasn't baptised til he was on his deathbed, probably something forced on him, so I wouldn't think he should the patriarch the church makes him out to be, but I guess they need heroes.

[Comet]

I think Constantine was a crafty politician and a good opportunist who knew when to exploit something, i.e. Christianity. Most of his troops were probably Christian and he knew it, so he decided to let them paint their shields with the Rho, the Greek P, which was one of the symbols of Christianity at the time. I was at the Vatican and overheard a guide telling tourists a "Catholic history lesson" about Constantine, it made me shudder, people actually think he was Christian, he just liked having control so he allowed his people to be Christian and oversaw all their meetings and debates. Constantine wasn't baptised til he was on his deathbed, probably something forced on him, so I wouldn't think he should the patriarch the church makes him out to be, but I guess they need heroes.

I absolutely agree with this....Constantine was a smart politician and he used momentum (rise of Christianity) to help aid his own cause. Later, he saw Christianity as his way of solidifying his Empire. Just look at what he did at Nicea by overseeing the entire operation. A very smart man that Constantine was :)

[CelticBard]

Plus at Nicea they determined Arianism to be heresy, it's said the other churchmen hated Arian because he was so good looking and their wives and daughters were always at church listening to Arian's sermons, which preached that Christ was a demigod instead of god.

Anyway, Arian's followers were cast out of the empire and found their way into the fortified camps and villages of the Vandals and Goths, preaching to eager listerners, who were amazed by this magical man Jesus.

Gaiseric, the Vandal king, is said to have been such a devout Arian that when he conquered North Africa he conducted regular slaughters of Orthodox (Catholic) Christians.

[heikstheo]

What do you make of Constantine's vision of the holy cross when he looked into the setting sun at Lilvian Bridge? The vision gave him inspiration and his army ultimately won the battle.

Do you think he really saw something in the sun? Wasn't he a pagan before seeing this vision?Too bad I can't find any of my old books on Constasntine. I seem to remember one of them putting forth the interpretation that the cross in the sky could be produced by the Sun shining through ice crystals in the clouds just so, or something like that. And, yes, he was still a sun god worshipper at the time.

[Procopius]

i always thought msot of Constantine's army at Milvian bridge were not christian. I heard somehwere that when he said he saw the cross and heard"conquer in the name of god" very few of his soldiers knew what it meant. It also stated the few christians tried to spread the word. :rolleyes:

[heikstheo]

i always thought msot of Constantine's army at Milvian bridge were not christian. I heard somehwere that when he said he saw the cross and heard"conquer in the name of god" very few of his soldiers knew what it meant. It also stated the few christians tried to spread the word. :rolleyes:There was also some other explanation ... I forget who said it and my memory is quite vague and treacherous here ... that the Christian symbols (cross, chi rho) were also symbols of the sun god.

[Lucius]

Firstly, what Constantine said he saw in the sky was a cross above a scroll which bore the motto, "In Hoc Signo Vinces", meaning, "in this sign you will conquer." That's why he told his guys to put that sign on their shields.

Also, Constantine refused to be baptized earlier because of such verses as 1 John 3:9 - "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." He thought that if he were baptized, and then sinned, he'd be damned. That's why he didn't want to be baptized til he was on his deathbed - he insisted that it be done this way, "just to be safe."

Also, Constantine was himself an Arian Christian. But he knew that he was no theologian. That's why he called the Council of Nicea - to authoritatively settle the question once and for all. The vote was over 300 to 2 to condemn Arianism as heresy. And Constantine was fine with that.

[Procopius]

oh yeah, that was the motto, getting confused here. deathbed baptism is common to purge you of all your sins. i think he was baptized a few weeks before he died at Nicomedia. Since he did do some pretty bad things like killing his son, wife, and brother in law (licinius).

[es_bih]

Well, his mother was a catholic. But perhaps he held a cross up at the sun, then pulled it away. Thus causing that a cross apeared in the sun. But maybe he did. No saying. :D

She was Christian, Catholic in the modern sense had not yet developed.

[Bloodhound]

Personally I believe it could well have been a sign, but I know some may say..."why believe a vision if you are skeptical of the greek myths". In light of this i have no problem with people putting it down to embellishment, but that doesn't work for me.

[Mortaryan]

Simultaneous Crepuscular and anticrepuscular rays.

This would have the appearance of a Cross...

Then being the consummate Roman political opportunist, I'm sure it dawned on him that by the Christian symbol he would be able to conquer the Empire.

Most politicians, practically, are atheists to begin with, worship themselves, probably realizing a general trend toward the Christian faith of the Roman mob decided to throw his lot in with Christianity.

Most "pagans" if there really ever was such a thing before Christian Clergy created it, were philosophically well educated elites...in the end the brute and the mob mentality always wins out.

Look at the Middle East at one time, thanks to Greek philosophy and writings, was the most advanced civilization on the earth, then the simple minded Islamist mob took over and the Middle East has nose dived ever since...and those Islamist are struggling to do the same thing to the West.

[Scourge]

What do you make of Constantine's vision of the holy cross when he looked into the setting sun at Lilvian Bridge? The vision gave him inspiration and his army ultimately won the battle.

Do you think he really saw something in the sun? Wasn't he a pagan before seeing this vision?
He more than likely just made the entire thing up to garner more support.

[NullZone]

In the early sources the instructions came to him in a dream rather than him physically witnessing anything.

[OldSwabbie]

Joel 2:28 ""It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions."

I cannot put God in a box - he is beyond Awesome. His ways are not "our" ways. I truly do believe he communicates to each one of us in a way "we" can understand. Did Constantine see a vision? Did the 3 little kids see something at Fatima? Who knows. Scripture supports visions "and" dreams as a means of communication from Him. Unless it contradicts the Word God I'm cool with it, even if I dont understand it :)

[Terrarius]

A cross in the sky before a battle seems to be a pretty common event. :D
Same happened with the Saltire, St. Andrew's Cross (http://www.scottishflagtrust.com/legend.htm)

[salsaga]

interesting

[princessX]

A cross in the sky before a battle seems to be a pretty common event. :D
Same happened with the Saltire, St. Andrew's Cross (http://www.scottishflagtrust.com/legend.htm)

Nigel Tranter wrote a book about Kenneth MacAlpin (for the life of me I can't remember what it was called but I really enjoyed reading it) and this Battle of Athelstaneford is where the book begins................and yes I know it's a novel but it tells the story of the Saltire appearing in the sky during the battle.