About the Irish preserving civilization

[pinguin]

Can anyone illustrate me about the thesis that Irish preserved civilization?
I know Ireland was a Celtic land, Christianized by Saint Patrick, on which early middle ages' monks studied and copied a lot of knowledge. I don't know more details, but I wish to learn more.

[gaius valerius]

Can anyone illustrate me about the thesis that Irish preserved civilization?
I know Ireland was a Celtic land, Christianized by Saint Patrick, on which early middle ages' monks studied and copied a lot of knowledge. I don't know more details, but I wish to learn more.

That is kind of an overstatement, a gross one actually. First of all civilisation did NOT mysteriously die when the western empire fell, moreso civilisation definitely continued to persist in the Mediterannean area and in the eastern empire. The importance of the Irish is generally linked to the 2nd christianisation of Europe, especially the monastic movement was reïnvigorated (for it came from Egypt). However you can't ignore facts and at the same time another christianisation was taking place from the south, from the old corelands to the old periphery, both movements coïncided and enabled the 2nd conversion of Europe. In any case, the Irish were the victim of it all for their christian views were wrong since they followed the wrong disciple of their lord (iirc John rather then Paul).


So no, the Irish did not save civilisation, that is a bit to much credit and can't be historically justified. Their role in the christianisation of Europe was prominent, yet the idea of rescue of civilisation is miles from the historical truth.

[Celticguy]

This is part of the general debate on how civilization was preserved in western europe after the end of the roman empire, with christianity playing a role especially in Ireland.

Like gaius said, it never really died even in western europe, but rather disrupted and civilization and culture slowly over a period of centuries improved in the west starting with Charlemagne and christianity.

[Lucius]

One could read the book, How the Irish Saved Civilization.

It's got a lot of interesting stuff in it.

[Pedro]

One could read the book, How the Irish Saved Civilization.

It's got a lot of interesting stuff in it.

And a most excellent book it was. Of course the title is provocative but only to get us to pick it up. The point of the book and its clones is to remind us that the 'the lights of Europe' had not gone out all over. What the book was not about was to start a lot of chit chat about nationalism.
Thanks for the reminder Lucius, I had almost forgotten that one.

[Scipio]

And of course McCormick's "Origins of the European Economy" argues that the lights did not really go out at all in Europe. I disagree with him (I think he has mistaken qualitative evidence for quantitative), but the "Dark Ages" are no longer considered such a "dark" time.

[Pedro]

And of course McCormick's "Origins of the European Economy" argues that the lights did not really go out at all in Europe. I disagree with him (I think he has mistaken qualitative evidence for quantitative), but the "Dark Ages" are no longer considered such a "dark" time.

Well said. My 'lights' remark was in quotes to echo Edward Grey, who at the outbreak of the First World War famously said 'the lights have gone out all over Europe'. Which is irrelevant here, but what the hell.

[Profrob]

As far as I know, nobody has yet written about "How Constantinople saved Civilization", but most of the ancient Greco-Roman writings, philosophy and artwork was preserved by the Byzantine Empire, and made its way back to western Europe via the Renaissance.

[pinguin]

I have read about how the Muslims preserver civilization and reintroduced it to the West through Al-Andalus, Spain, and Sicily.

[Pedro]

Everybody tries to preserve their civilization. It's the adult thing to do.

[Comet]

I have read about how the Muslims preserver civilization and reintroduced it to the West through Al-Andalus, Spain, and Sicily.

You are correct. Without the Islamic influence, the Renaissance may have been delayed another couple hundred years in Western Europe.

[Richard Stanbery]

Well, Ireland was called in the dark ages "The Island of monks and scholars", and for a good reason. Ireland was never a part of the Roman Empire (why?) and so it never had to "fall". It was removed from continental Europe, and so missed the Vandals, Huns, Visigoths, Lombards, et al and so on overrunning them while it was happening in the rest of Europe.

Ireland may not have singlehandedly saved civilization, but it did contribute quite a lot in keeping the dark ages from becomming a whole lot darker. And so, yes, we do owe a great deal of thanks and grattitude to dark ages Irish clerics and scholars for thier contribution to the civilization of Europe recovering from the dark ages quicker than otherwise.

And remember, Brian Boru was himself educated by Irish monks in an Irish monastery. Perhaps without that, we see no Irish victory at Clontarf? Boru spent a lot of time building schools in Ireland, and to pay for it he required tributes (taxes). That is what the "Boru" means in his name.

Government led education systems like this were almst unheard of in dark ages Europe. And so, yes, the Irish did have a big hand in preserving much of what would have been lost otherwise. Perhaps even Alfred the Great was a more educated man in a very indirect and roundabout way because of Irish influence?

And besides, Ireland is prettier than France.

[gaius valerius]

.

Ireland may not have singlehandedly saved civilization, but it did contribute quite a lot in keeping the dark ages from becomming a whole lot darker.

You'd better go to the topic about the "Dark Ages" and revise your statement. If Ireland hadn't been there things wouldn't have been "darker", that statement reflects a totally biased and uninformed attitude towards this period! A given would be that the 2nd christianisation and the monastic movement might have been considerably slower.

As far as I know, nobody has yet written about "How Constantinople saved Civilization", but most of the ancient Greco-Roman writings, philosophy and artwork was preserved by the Byzantine Empire, and made its way back to western Europe via the Renaissance.

Well there was no civilisation to be saved. The books were there even in continental Europe even if they lay unused on dusty shelfs. The idea is that Constantinople played an important part in fueling the Renaissance with the influx of Greek scholars and scholary works after 1453, which more then anything ignited the Renaissance (in the short run, not the long run, otherwise the Renaissance was an entirely internal European movement). The fact is that prior to the import of Byzantine knowledge Europe was already recapitulating Aristotle, etc.

[Richard Stanbery]

Im afraid that I do not follow. In what way am I uninformed about the Dark Ages?

[Comet]

Well there was no civilisation to be saved.

I would be careful with this particular statement. While there may not have been a civilization to be saved, there were certainly parts of civilization that did need saving.

A simplistic definition of civilization could be: a complex society with forms of government, religion, and centers of learning. Now this is a truly simplistic definition (with complex society being the key words here)...but if we humor this definition, it certainly would fit the concept of a world in need of saving.

Take centers of learning as an example. While the Church did indeed continue to have centers of learning, it certainly wasn't like it was in Ancient Greece and Rome. In this case, I would say that civilization took a "step backwards" in the field of learning. That is why the Renaissance is such an important time period, because man started focusing on what they can accomplish...what they can control as opposed to "what has God got in store for me today"...an attitude that was seen in Greece and Rome. Learning was the key to changing this attitude...which was an attitude worth saving. Again, like our discussion about the dark ages, the attitude was slightly different depending on where you were in Western Europe (Ireland being a good example of a place where they "tried to save civilization")

[gaius valerius]

Im afraid that I do not follow. In what way am I uninformed about the Dark Ages?

People have a pretty biased attitude towards the period, as in it was pure darkness, modern day research reveals the dark ages to be less dark then earlier generations perceived them to be;

I would be careful with this particular statement. While there may not have been a civilization to be saved, there were certainly parts of civilization that did need saving.

Fair enough, no argument there.

[Richard Stanbery]

I guess that the dark ages might have been more frightening than anything due to the constant warfare and social upheaval. Of course, this would have a retarding effect upon trade and scholarly endeavors. I wouldnt go out much if Vikings were about.

[Lucius]

If I recall the book correctly, I think the idea was that Britain was re-Christianized from Ireland, and Germany was Christianized from Britain. And that's how the Irish saved civilization.

[Richard Stanbery]

I seem to remember a supposed quote from King James I of England who said something like, "All English Kings are descended from Scottish kings, and all of them from Irish Kings", or something like that. Somebody help me out here?

[galteeman]

We are all descended from Kings don't you know!
Anyways this page describes how the Irish missionaries founded the monastaries first in Britain and then on the continent. They were like sort of traveling charismatic preachers back in those days.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiberno-Scottish_mission

[Richard Stanbery]

Ah, the monks of Culdee, the Church of Iona, what a great path of historical researching.

A question about Brian Boru; Do you believe that Gormlaith really helped to form the alliance against her former husband Boru which led to his death at Clontarf?

Or, was this a sort of mideaval morality play?

I for one believe it, but I wanted your take on it.

[galteeman]

Nah Richard I don't have a take on her. I'll bet youv'e read Tim Severin's book 'Viiking Odin's Child' though. If you haven't read it, you would like it I reckon. He goes into the goings on before the battle of Clontarf and he says what you say, ie that she was a beautiful and manipulative woman scheming to get revenge on her former husband who had imprisoned her and scorned her.
Who knows what her real role was. How much could a woman have influenced the decisions of warlords like Brian and Fat Sigurd, Brodir and Sittryggr?.

[Chookie]

Ah, the monks of Culdee, the Church of Iona, what a great path of historical researching.
Not quite Richard, the C èlè Dè weren't a place. They were the "Keledi" of later writings. While they were part of the Celtic church, they tended to live separately (i.e. not in con-hospitae).


While the Celtic Church as a whole, was monastic, the Culdees tended to be anchorites.

[NullZone]

So does preverving Cilviliation mean having the main slave market for Western Europe in this time period?

[Comet]

So does preverving Cilviliation mean having the main slave market for Western Europe in this time period?


What do you mean by this? I'm not sure I understand where you're going with this statement.

[NullZone]

What do you mean by this? I'm not sure I understand where you're going with this statement.

During the early middle ages Ireland was the largest slave trading centre in Western Europe.

Manly because the rest od us had assorted feudilism types which doesn't require slaves...

[Comet]

During the early middle ages Ireland was the largest slave trading centre in Western Europe.

Manly because the rest od us had assorted feudilism types which doesn't require slaves...


Ok, I see what you mean.

[Richard Stanbery]

Not quite Richard, the C[/size] èlè Dè weren't a place. They were the "Keledi" of later writings. While they were part of the Celtic church, they tended to live separately (i.e. not in con-hospitae).


While the Celtic Church as a whole, was monastic, the Culdees tended to be anchorites.


Of course I know that the Culdees were not a place. But there was a relationship with that order and the Church of Iona.

As to the slavery thing, I think we need only look to Dubh Lihn and the peoples of the North to see what made that happen as it did.

As to the rumors of Europeans being taken by the Vikings and sold to the Moors, I believe those stories. Dont you?