Byzantium - Cultural Identity?

[DesertPilot]

Originally Posted by Resha Caner

Further, after the Schism, both the Orthodox Church and the Emperor began to consciously emphasize their distinctions with the West - something that did not serve them well when the Turks showed up.

There was also that business with the Fourth Crusade. We tend to forget that it was Western Europeans who brought down the Byzantine Empire -- the Turks just applied the finishing touches. Getting invaded by Western armies ("Onward Christian soldiers, marching as to war!") early in the 13th century did a fairly good job of 'emphasizing their distinctions with the West' right there

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by DesertPilot

There's an added complication, for there are actually two questions here:

1) How long did the Byzantines go on thinking of themselves as Romans?

2) How long did everyone else go on thinking of the Byzantines as Romans?

.

From what I read (John Julius Norwich) it was fluid depending on individual perspective. Someone with a classical education for example such as some of the more scholarly Emperors were often viewed with resentment by subjects as Greek.

Also from my current reading the Arabs at least did call the capital, if not the empire Rum.

The question gave me pause for thought as to what predominant factor do we use when defining and labelling culture? Religion? Language? Birthplace? Skin tone? etc

[sturm]

The crusaders called the byzantines - greeks, in there travel notes. There is not a correct answer to the question are Byzantines seen as greek or romans, slavic nations aways called Byzantinians - romans.

Not only the people in Byzantine territories were called "Rum", but also those on Balkans (which ethnicly arent greek) this was mainly a word meaning "christians" instead of "greek". The whole phrase i think is "Rum milet".

[Irnik]

Originally Posted by Resha Caner

Further, after the Schism, both the Orthodox Church and the Emperor began to consciously emphasize their distinctions with the West - something that did not serve them well when the Turks showed up.

The Latin titles were only words and traditions by the end.

It was long before the Turks showed up - recall the Fourth Crusade. The attack and conquest of Constantinople was the event that completely destroyed the former link between the Eastern and Western centres.

The wars against the Eastern Christian countries (Byzantium and later Bulgaria) by people who were sent to save Christianity from the Muslims was an absolute proof that nothing Christian has left in the intentions of theirs. If the Pope was worthy Christian, he would have to excommunicate the them.

[falcon]

The Eastern Roman empire did start as an extension of the original Roman empire, but with the exception of its officialdom and the upper class, the great majority of its people spoke Greek. This situation lasted for almost 250 years into the 6th century from the founding of Constantinople as its capital in 330 AD.
Around the end of the 6th century (578) even its officiala and its emperors spoke as their first language Greek, not that the previous emperors didn't speak it at least as a second language. To the Arabs and Persians it was known as the empire of the Greeks.
True they did call themselves as Romaioi, but that was only because the majority in mainland Greece had stuck to the old ancient religion of the 12 gods, and they didn't want to be identified with paganism.
By the begining of the 7th century the language had become even officially Greek even though they still called themselves Romioi, but that word had come to mean Greek.
Even in today's Greece you will find people calling themselves as Romioi, meaning Greek.
Of course in later years of the empire the people started to identify more and more with their roots of ancient Greece and be proud of it, as the word Greek had stoped being associated with paganism, because by that time even mainland Greece was completely Christianized.

Therefore one can only say that the Byzantine empire started as a Roman empire which was transformed by necessity into a Greek empire.

[sturm]

Originally Posted by Irnik

The wars against the Eastern Christian countries (Byzantium and later Bulgaria) by people who were sent to save Christianity from the Muslims was an absolute proof that nothing Christian has left in the intentions of theirs. If the Pope was worthy Christian, he would have to excommunicate the them.

This is absolutely true, but we shouldn't forget that crusaders are also humans, they are also greedy and would dream of being rich and wealthy.
Crusaders are not only nobles and rich wealthy knights, but also poor servents who sees a great opportunity to loot from the rich holy lands, and orthodox countries.


Falcon, a huge part of Byzantine empire was populated by slavic tribes, who spoke there own slavic language not greek. I have said in many many posts, that Byzantine empire IS NOT one nationality and one ethnic origin, but many as the Western Roman empire was.
Therefor i couldn't agree that the Byzantine empire was more like Greek empire, because of the facts that i presented above, the many naitonalities forming the empire, and im not speaking only for the common people but also the ruling class of people.
Besides in many text Byzantine empire is called Roman empire.

[falcon]

Originally Posted by sturm

Falcon, a huge part of Byzantine empire was populated by slavic tribes, who spoke there own slavic language not greek. I have said in many many posts, that Byzantine empire IS NOT one nationality and one ethnic origin, but many as the Western Roman empire was.
Therefor i couldn't agree that the Byzantine empire was more like Greek empire, because of the facts that i presented above, the many naitonalities forming the empire, and im not speaking only for the common people but also the ruling class of people.
Besides in many text Byzantine empire is called Roman empire.

Of course there were other people besides Greek in the Byzantine empire like the same held true in the Roman or the Ottoman empires

However its culture was Greek, its religion was Greek Orthodox, and the overwhelming majority of its people spoke Greek, therefore you could hardly say it was something else other than being Greek.

The fact that some books refer to it as Roman empire does not necessarily make it so.
A lot of other books call it Byzantine which was never called in its days.
Yet a lot of other books call it the Greek empire, which I think is the most correct after the initial stages of its existence..

[Irnik]

Originally Posted by sturm

This is absolutely true, but we shouldn't forget that crusaders are also humans, they are also greedy and would dream of being rich and wealthy.
Crusaders are not only nobles and rich wealthy knights, but also poor servents who sees a great opportunity to loot from the rich holy lands, and orthodox countries.

I agree. But then, they should not be called crusaders. They did not behave much differently than the invaders, called by both Roman empires barbarians.
If referring to the "noble" knights - 300 of them went on war with Bulgaria, breaking the treaty between two Christian countries. I am very happy Kaloyan punished them severely, especially the liar Balduin of Flanders who had his time in prison to regret his stupidity.

[Irnik]

Originally Posted by falcon

Of course there were other people besides Greek in the Byzantine empire like the same held true in the Roman or the Ottoman empires

However its culture was Greek, its religion was Greek Orthodox, and the overwhelming majority of its people spoke Greek, therefore you could hardly say it was something else other than being Greek.

The fact that some books refer to it as Roman empire does not necessarily make it so.
A lot of other books call it Byzantine which was never called in its days.
Yet a lot of other books call it the Greek empire, which I think is the most correct after the initial stages of its existence..

You are right - Byzantium was more Greek than Latin but... Noone calls the Roman empire, the Latin empire due to the Latin character of its culture and official language. I doubt the only reason is that it can be mistaken with the actual Latin empire found by the Fourth crusade.

[falcon]

Originally Posted by Irnik

You are right - Byzantium was more Greek than Latin but... Noone calls the Roman empire, the Latin empire due to the Latin character of its culture and official language. I doubt the only reason is that it can be mistaken with the actual Latin empire found by the Fourth crusade.

I agree with you that as time went by, especially after the first 250 years when Constantinople became the capital, Byzantium became way much more Greek than anything resembling Latin as you call it; only to end up 100% Greek long before the time of its fall.


Also, of course it could never be mistaken with the Latin empire found by the 4th crusade; you are talking about two completely different cultures not only in religion and language but also the concsience of their people.

Now with regards to calling the Roman empire as Latin, there was no such reason, simply because the two interchangeably identified each other at the time frame of the Roman empire.
Surely later on the word Latin expanded to include other peoples like the French, Germans, Spanish etc.