History of Macedonia

[sturm]

Yes greeks and bulgars used to be enemies, but in medieval times, greek (byzantine at the time) wrote enourmous amount of information about bulgars, and slavic tribes, but never they said nothing about macedonians, so we clearly can state that the slavic tribes in the medival times didn't had anything to do with Ancient Macedonia.
Today FYROM lives in 13-14 century, the country is totally isolated from the countries around it, and that because they are too nationalistic, sometimes there nationalism turns into shovinism, and thats why bulgar's arent welcome in Macedonia at all, not to mantion that those who clame to be bulgars are repressed.
Greek autors have wrote a lot of information about tzar Samuil also, and they didn't clamed him being a macedonian, they wrote he was bulgarian.
Macedonians are happy and prould only and only with Alexander, Alexander for them is everywhere, there airports, streets, names, hell the next time i go in Macedonia i will be knocking myself in statues of Alexander.
But where is the medieval history of Macedonia? I dont see it? Where are the heroes of Macedonia in the medieval times?
What Macedonians actually did is, cut off our medival history after tzar Samuil, and place it in there own books, staying that this is Macedonian history.

[vee]

Originally Posted by sturm

I will answer to this post first because i think its more interesting topic.

Bulgarians do indeed have many pagan traditions (not christian), which are preserved from the years where Bulgaria wasn't christian, but pagan country believing in Tangra (or Tangri).
I dont know if you have it in Macedonia, but a "kukeri" is one traditional Bulgarian, pagan custom\tradition that is still done every year.
A man dressed with scary masks, leathers, many ring bell's on them preform ritual dances in order to scare off bad spirits. http://panbulgar.16.forumer.com/a/kukers_post49.html
I know what you will say now. That this is a custom in Macedonian and it is not Bulgarian, if you truly like history, and in fact care about history, you will understand that samiliar rituals are preformed in Caucasus, and the Steppes.

For one celebration i know that even in Macedonia is a tradition, the martenichki, placed on your whist's at 1-st of March, that isn't bulgarian tradition, but it is slavic pagan tradition also, which do in fact show's you perfectly that macedonians are slavs, and ancient macedonians, i dont just have the needed evidance to agree that they are slavs.

That's really interesting! I am unfamiliar with the "kukeri" tradition, but i'm going to guess that it is probably not performed in Macedonia, since i don't know about it.

I think you're under the wrong impression about Macedonians. We do not try and claim everything (there are some FEW who do, but, you can find those types of people in every culture). Unless i have evidence that things originated in macedonia, then, of course, i will not claim them to be ours. Again, many things are connected with our religion, and our slavic culture, so again, i agree that they are not belonging to a single country in the Balkans. Perhaps the Macedonians you encountered are like this (most probably they are from Macedonia), but you forget that there are many of us living in other countries. In australia (which is very multi-cultural, there are so many different ethnicities living here), we are taught about human rights & respecting other cultures, we have a great education system here. We are almost like outsiders, looking in, so we see things more clearly and differently to the Macedonians living in Macedonia.

Originally Posted by sturm

(unlike macedonians), cannot clame that im the same like the first bulgar's who came here, because first of all our names are slavic, our religion is eastern orthodox, our culture is more of a slavic, however do not think that you macedonians are purely slavic, not only you but also bulgars, and greeks are connected with turks somehow, 500 years are a lot of years, we have taken much of there traditions also, not to mantion the bulgarian meals. Thats why we here call the first pagan bulgars who came to this country proto-bulgars.

That is the same with us. It is only natural that we have Turkish elements in our cultures (how the greeks cannot see this is beyond me in regards to their own ethnicity & origins).

Originally Posted by sturm

I cannot agree that the slavic tribes with which bulgar's mixed, are macedonians, first of all they werent called macedonians, second of all they wouldn't have accepted the Bulgarian khan, and the bulgarian rule if they were so different. Besides all slavic tribes with which bulgar's mixed had a name. Not to mantion that one of the son's of the khan, called khan Kuber have leaded a group of Bulgars, who made a country over where today is Macedonia, and this country was called Kuber Bulgaria, but it existed for a short period of time, maybe it mixed with the other bulgars.

I think you misunderstood me here. I was saying slavic tribes (not macedonian tribes) mixed with bulgar tribes to create today's Bulgarians. These tribes also mixed with Ancient Macedonians, creating a SEPERATE ethnicity, today's Macedonians. I was not claiming that Bulgarians are Macedonians.

Originally Posted by sturm

About the songs, im not going to clame anysong, that im sure its not bulgarian, as "Makedonski devoiche", nobody from Bulgaria ever said that "Makedonsko devoiche" is bulgarian, there are bulgarians who say that macedonians are bulgarians in fact thats why they use you songs, if there is somebody who will forbid me to listen to macedonian song, let him tell me know or shut up forever..

Why would anyone forbid it? Listening is fine, i have said that in a previous post. I mentioned "makedonsko devojce" as a joke. (Or, perhaps it's not a joke? lol, I know many "greeks" say that Macedonia=Greece, so i guess they are the only people stupid enough to claim to songs as "their" own!)

Originally Posted by sturm

There is a huge amount of bulgarian folklore songs, which came from the different regions of Bulgaria, the mountain Rodopi, the thracian region, shopi region(from which im from), there were number of Bulgarian ethnologs who tried to collect all the songs from all region in books, but they aways failed, because there were even more songs then he heard from one region.
Slavic folklore isn't something that belong either to me or to macedonia or to serbia, Macedonians have also taken much from our culture, dont macedonians clame that tzar Samuil was Macedonian? Or Nikola Vaptsarov is macedonian? Arent clameing part of somebodys history, as bigger offense as claming his folklore?
Macedonia is a country that bulgarians would never be accepted, and aways will be procecuted, this is a wildly known fact. Problem is that macedonians dont want to listen, to what others have to say, to when other want to show evidance, you just shove em up, as you did with falcon, you practicly made the guy go away, not wanting to speak with, then you say to me, that if im not polite you wont speak with me..

I guess stealing history goes both ways. I think something needs to be done about this, so we can all move on and have better relations. I think REAL research needs to be conducted, unbiased sources need to review the history of our nations. Greece needs to be included in this (so they can see once and for all they are living on a lie, and that Macedonians are not Greek OR Bulgarian, since so many of them believe we are one or the other). You cannot generalize a population. I accept people for who they are, not what they are. Have you been to Macedonia?I would like to think your claims are untrue. I have many Bulgarian, Serbian, and yes, not greek friends, but a few greeks in the family, who are not racist towards Macedonians. However, most "greeks" i have come across are the opposite, and these are the people who i dislike.

Again, i think your perception is wrong. Macedonians do listen, I did listen to Falcon, he did not respond because i GAVE him evidence that prove HIM WRONG. He has NOT presented me any evidence to prove me wrong so far. If he had, i would have gone over it, but he chose not to, because the truth hurts too much for him. And being polite makes it easier to conduct proper conversations, it's much better and easier to get points across. Plus, i don't have anything against you, i don't know you, so why should i not be polite, so far i'm enjoying your pint of view on things. (falcon is an exception, since he can not be reasoned with).

Originally Posted by sturm

I would like you to know that bulgars dont side with the greeks, in that forum i have been constantly attacked and offended, not by macedonians but by people of greek origin, who would never accept bulgars, and will aways speak about them as barberians, you should understand that on the Balkans nobody sides with nobody, on the Balkans everybody hate everybody, its just that much ****y place.

And that is the biggest shame. Obviously, "greeks" attack anyone who isn't "greek", just making a simple comment will send them over the edge. I try to be civilized, yet they insult me. Since i do not live in the Balkans, i would not know the reality, but from what i can see, there are two extremes, people either get along really well (when it's time for celebrations, i see music unites people) and the rest of the time they don't.

[vee]

Originally Posted by sturm

Yes greeks and bulgars used to be enemies, but in medieval times, greek (byzantine at the time) wrote enourmous amount of information about bulgars, and slavic tribes, but never they said nothing about macedonians, so we clearly can state that the slavic tribes in the medival times didn't had anything to do with Ancient Macedonia.
Today FYROM lives in 13-14 century, the country is totally isolated from the countries around it, and that because they are too nationalistic, sometimes there nationalism turns into shovinism, and thats why bulgar's arent welcome in Macedonia at all, not to mantion that those who clame to be bulgars are repressed.
Greek autors have wrote a lot of information about tzar Samuil also, and they didn't clamed him being a macedonian, they wrote he was bulgarian.
Macedonians are happy and prould only and only with Alexander, Alexander for them is everywhere, there airports, streets, names, hell the next time i go in Macedonia i will be knocking myself in statues of Alexander.
But where is the medieval history of Macedonia? I dont see it? Where are the heroes of Macedonia in the medieval times?
What Macedonians actually did is, cut off our medival history after tzar Samuil, and place it in there own books, staying that this is Macedonian history.

Read my post above, you are deeply mistaken. The same could be said for he "greeks" and bulgarians. Many Greeks worship their "pure greekness" when that is a lie, they worship alexander more than us, when he wasn't even Greek. I know i personally don't worship the guy. I'm proud that he was Macedonian, but i don't worship him. And again, where is this proof? I am getting all these accusations, but no one can present any evidence!

[falcon]

Originally Posted by sturm

Yes greeks and bulgars used to be enemies, but in medieval times, greek (byzantine at the time) wrote enourmous amount of information about bulgars, and slavic tribes, but never they said nothing about macedonians, so we clearly can state that the slavic tribes in the medival times didn't had anything to do with Ancient Macedonia.
Today FYROM lives in 13-14 century, the country is totally isolated from the countries around it, and that because they are too nationalistic, sometimes there nationalism turns into shovinism, and thats why bulgar's arent welcome in Macedonia at all, not to mantion that those who clame to be bulgars are repressed.
Greek autors have wrote a lot of information about tzar Samuil also, and they didn't clamed him being a macedonian, they wrote he was bulgarian.
Macedonians are happy and prould only and only with Alexander, Alexander for them is everywhere, there airports, streets, names, hell the next time i go in Macedonia i will be knocking myself in statues of Alexander.
But where is the medieval history of Macedonia? I dont see it? Where are the heroes of Macedonia in the medieval times?
What Macedonians actually did is, cut off our medival history after tzar Samuil, and place it in there own books, staying that this is Macedonian history.

The problem started when the communist leader Tito of Yugoslavia back in 1945 gave them the name Macedonia, as one of the constituent republics in that country. Up to that point they were calling their region Vardarska from the river Vardar.
Well, they took it seriously and we didn't pay much attention to it at the time because their country was in the communist block.
Tito did that in order to create problems first for Bulgaria by putting a wedge between you and them, in order to separate you, stressing the fact that they were not real Bulgarians; and second to create problems for Greece implying naively that the 2,500,000 Greek Macedonians residing in Greece are not real Greeks but constitute a different ethnicity which of course is anathema not only to the Greek Macedonians but to all Greeks. There were of course alterior motives for this, and those were for Tito to get an outlet to the Aegean sea if possible, farther into the future.

[vee]

Originally Posted by falcon

Sturm, the Greeks don't think that the Bulgarians are barbarians; maybe back in the middle ages as you pointed out, but not today.
But the Fyromians are out of this world, they are trying to create an identity by rewriting history and stealing the culture and the inheritence of other people; Didn't you see what he said? that we are Slavs and Turks!
Now how does it happen that we don't speak a Slavic language maybe Serbian, or some Bulgarian dialect like they do, or even Turkish, only he can answer.
How would you have liked if we had told you that czar Samouil was Greek? wouldn't you think that we would most probably be idiots?
That's what these people are doing with Alexander the Great, Phillip II, or Aristotle. They are raising statues and calling their airports, boulevards etc. by these names to convince themselves that they are somehow connected with them.
The worse thing about is that they are trying to find ignorant and naive people to go along with their bull.
You are actually talking about paranoia, that's why I stopped answering him.

He? i'm a woman, at least get that right. And of course you're slavs & turks! And we have every right to raise as many statues as we want, since Alexander the Great WAS Macedonian. Pick up an encyclopedia (an non "greek" one), it SAYS it in PRINT he was Macedonian. And you know you stopped answering since you cannot provide not even ONE SHRED of evidence to support any of your claims.

[vee]

Originally Posted by falcon

The problem started when the communist leader Tito of Yugoslavia back in 1945 gave them the name Macedonia, as one of the constituent republics in that country. Up to that point they were calling their region Vardarska from the river Vardar.
Well, they took seriously and we didn't pay much attention to it at the time because their country was in the communist block.
Tito did that in order to create problems first for Bulgaria by putting a wedge between you and them, in order to separate you, stressing the fact that they were not real Bulgarians; and second to create problems for Greece implying naively that the 2,500,000 Greek Macedonians residing in Greece are not real Greeks but constitute a different ethnicity which of course is anathema not only to the Greek Macedonians but to all Greeks. There were of course alterior motives for this, and those were for Tito to get an outlet to the Aegean sea if possible, farther into the future.

Tito? You mean Michael Jackson's brother lol? Very untrue, my great-grandparents arrived in Australia long before Tito became leader, and they identified themselves as Macedonian, not Vardarski or whatever you think they are.

[falcon]

Sturm like you said:
What is their connection with ancient Macedonians?
NONE.
What is our connection with ancient Macedonians?
Macedonians spoke Greek like we do; they had the same culture with the rest of the Greeks, participating in the Olympic games when only Greeks could paticipate at that time; they worshiped the same gods with the rest of the Greeks, and above all they considered themselves Greek.

Where is their presence as a separate ethnicity like the Bulgarians or the Serbians during the middle ages?
NOWHERE TO BE FOUND.

Now they are saying that the Greeks do not accept that they have been influenced by the Turks!
We never said that, in fact we know that a lot of Greeks especially from Anatolia (like a lot of Bulgarians and Serbians) became Moslems for different reasons and were incorporated eventually as Turks!
Now what are we suppose to say? that the Turks are really Greeks or Bulgarians or Serbians? That's ridiculous

[falcon]

Originally Posted by vee

He? i'm a woman, at least get that right. And of course you're slavs & turks! And we have every right to raise as many statues as we want, since Alexander the Great WAS Macedonian. Pick up an encyclopedia (an non "greek" one), it SAYS it in PRINT he was Macedonian. And you know you stopped answering since you cannot provide not even ONE SHRED of evidence to support any of your claims.

Since you are a woman my dear and you are so sure to call us Slavs and Turks, I have to tell you just one thing:
This is the 248th post, go back and read all the evidence that all the other Greeks have provided in this topic, and then come and talk to me again.
You know there is a saying:

"At the deaf's door you can knock forever".

YOU ARE AS MUCH MACEDONIANS AS I AM CHINESE!

[sturm]

Originally Posted by vee

Tito? You mean Michael Jackson's brother lol? Very untrue, my great-grandparents arrived in Australia long before Tito became leader, and they identified themselves as Macedonian, not Vardarski or whatever you think they are.

That is a very interesting clame. Looks like not all people in Macedonia though the same way.
First of all lest check out this flag used in the Bulgarian revolution 1876, and made by Raina Popgeorgieva (info about her - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayna_Knyaginya ), and flag used in the revolutionary movement for freedom of macedonia - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...mro-symbol.jpg ).
Why is it wrote on bulgarian language? Why isnt it "Слобода или смрт" as every macedonia today will write it? Did the language changed? Did Macedonians used the bulgarian language?
This slogan is freely used even on stamps - http://img24.exs.cx/img24/6279/Svobo...myrtpechat.jpg so it was wildy used.
Even today, not to mantion back then many macedonians considered themself as bulgarians, today there are thousend macedonians who clame that they are bulgarians.

Do not forget however that the first nation to aknowage FYROM was Bulgaria, and when FYROM decelered independence from Ygoslavia, Macedonia was left without weapons, without army, everything was with the serbs, but we gave you tanks from Bulgaria, to protect yourself if the war came to FYROM. Do not forget what happend in Bosnia, with there poorly armed, and low in numbers army, after they declered independence, the very same thing could have happend in Macedonia.

[bulgar]

Originally Posted by vee

AHHH!!! Of COURCE YOU of ALL people would make that claim! Where is this so called evidence? You know & I know that it's the other way around, the Bulgar's stole Macedonian history. Let's begin with our music, shall we? Jovano, Jovanke / Zajdi, Zajdi Jasno Sonce/ More sokol Pie etc. ALL MACEDONIAN & PROVEN TO BE WRITTEN BY A MACEDONIAN, yet, YOUR PEOPLE CLAIM THESE SONGS AS YOUR OWN!!! And furthermore, you go so far as to CHANGE THE LYRICS!! If these were your songs, the lyrics wouldn't need changing in the first place! If you could, you would also probaly claim "MAKEDONSKO Devojce" or even "Biser Balkanski" as your own as well. Good luck with that

Are you crazy. You are mixing the province called Macedonia and the inhabitants of with their origin. Of course there is many Bulgarians in Macedonia and many Macedonians in Bulgaria, because it was one nation.
What age are you-10?Where do you dig your books to call yourself macedonian and not bulgarian, shame on you.You might be from Macedonia, but you are Bulgarian my friend.
Bulgaria and Macedonia was one before, you were brainwashed the last hundred years because of political interest to think you are something else.
Here is a bit of history and except for picking on song names, please find some solid evidence to oppose that Macedonia was something else than simply part of the Bulgarian nation for hundreds of years and actually Ancient Macedonians as you like to call yourselfs, meaning the people inhabiting current days Macedonia considered themselves Bulgarians and are descendants of Khan Asparuhs brother, khan Kouber, both Bulgarians.