Korean descendants conquered China - Historum

altaicmania · 11-06-2009, 04:44 AM

altaicmania · 11-06-2009, 04:46 AM

After Silla destroyed Goguryeo and expanded territory further north, some people of Silla moved to north which was old Goguryeo's area. After the collapse of Silla, some people of Silla escaped to Balhae. But, Balhae was collaped at Liao invasion again. They unified Jurchen tribes establishing Jin dynasty.

The originator of Jin dynasty was a Silla person. His name was Hambo. The emperor of Jin dynasty was called a Silla person by Song Chinese who visited Jin in 1120s. Some history books say that the Jurchen King was a Silla person, others say that the originator of Jin was first from Goryeo[7]. It is because Silla was replaced by Goryeo. However, Chinese, Mongol, Korean, and Manchu history records are consistent impling that Jurchen kings are originally from Silla.

The name of the originator of Jin(金) is Hambo(函普). When he came first from Goryeo(高麗), his age was 60
金之始祖諱函普，初從高麗來，年已六十餘矣 (in 1st chapter of the history of Jin(金史) [3])

Not only the originator of Jin, but also Agolta (阿骨打), the founder of Jin dynasty, was called originally a person from Silla

Agolta (阿骨打) of the Jurchens declared to be the Emperor, ... He was originally a person of Silla (新羅人)
女真阿骨打稱帝，姓王名做旻，本新羅人，號完顏氏 (in 3 宣和遺事 (大宋宣和遺事)) [2]
Jurchen Agolta named the state Great Jin (大金) (... He is originally a person of Silla).
女真阿骨打稱帝國號大金(...本新羅人) (in《佛祖歷代通載》卷19)

There are lots of history records showing that the originator of Jin dynasty was a Silla person (or from Goryeo)

The originator of Wonan family (Jin's royal family) is a person of Silla
完顏之始祖指蒲者，新羅人 (in 大宋遗民)
The name of the originator of Jin is Hambo. He came first from Goryeo (髙丽)
金之始祖諱函普初從高麗來 ( in 大金國誌 written by Song Chinese)
The originator of Jin, Hambo was first from Goyreo.
金之始祖諱哈富(舊作函普)初從髙麗來 (in 三朝北盟會編 written by Song Chinese)

Mongol and Korean records are consistent showing that the originator and the king of Jin dynasty are Silla persons. Goryeo claimed that Jin dyansty was originally inside Goryeo and they were people of Goryeo, and Goryeo was the mother country of Jin dynasty

People of Jin was originally Pyungjoo people in our country Goyreo. Goryeo was a mother country of Jin.
金則本我國平州之人, 稱我爲父母之國, 尹灌築九城之地, 以先春嶺爲界, 終金之世, 兵不相加。(高麗史 written by Korean dynasty)
The king of Jurchens is originally a Silla person
其初酋長本新羅人 (in 金志 written by Mongols in Yuan dynasty)

Until when did the royal family of Jin dynasty know that they were from Silla? When Jurchens visited Goryeo, they said their country was originated from Goryeo.

My ancestors (我祖宗) originated from the High country (大邦: Goryeo).
我祖宗出自大邦 (from 高麗史13卷-世家13-睿宗1109, written by Korean in Goryeo)

When Jin dynasty invaded Song China, two Chinese emperors were captured as hostages in 1127. Song Chinese visited Jin dynasty to negotiate with Jin to find a way to get their emperors back in 1129. They recorded that the king of Jin dynasty (the second empeor of Jin) was a person of Silla. It shows that the royal family of Jurchen was called Silla people even after Jin dynasty was founded.

The king of the Jurchens is a person of Silla.
女真酋長乃新羅人 (in 松漠記聞 (洪皓, 宋), 1129, written by Song Chinese)

Korean connection to Manchus of Qing dynasty

Manchu Qing dynasty(1636-1912) is the successor of Jurchen's Jin dynasty (1115-1234) . Jurchens rebuilt Later Jin dynasty in 1616. They changed the country name to Qing (1636), and conquered China (1644), Mongolia (1697), Taiwan (1683), Tibet(1750), and Uyguru(1759). The royal family of Qing believed that they were descendents of Jin's royal family. Manchu people in Qing dynasty also knew that the originator of Jin dynasty was from Goryeo (or Silla). Qing government published their own history book, "The origin of Manchu (滿洲源流考)" in 1777. They worte that the originator of Jin dynasty was first from Goryeo in the book. Also, they wrote that the origin of the country name Jin (金) was from the surname of kings of Silla(新羅).

The name of the originator of Jin is Hambo. He came first from Goryeo (髙丽)
金之始祖讳哈富(旧作函普)初从髙丽来 (in Chapter 7, The Origin of Manchu (滿洲源流考) [1] )
The name of Jin(金) was originated from the surname of Kings of Silla(新羅)
新罗王金姓则金之逺派 (in The Origin of Manchu [1])
Silla came to Wannan family. Silla kings' surname 金(Kim in Korean) inherited ten generations. So, Jin(金) came from Silla. There is no doubt that it became the country name.
"本自新羅來姓完顔氏新羅王金姓相傳數十世則金之自新羅來無疑建國之名 "(in The Origin of Manchu [1])

Also, Qing emperors' surname was "愛新覺羅". Interestingly, it can be read as "love Silla (愛新羅) and remember Silla (覺新羅)". The surname "愛新覺羅" means gold(金) clan in Manchu pronunciation (Aisin Gioro). The surname Kim(金) of Silla kings means gold too. After the end of Qing dynasty, the descendents of royal family changed their surname to 金.

The Manchu royal family Aishin Giro (愛新覺羅) clan were people who lived in Odoli Castle which is in current Hoeryong (회령), North Hamgyong in North Korea before foundation of Later Jin dynasty. They were a vassal tribe to Joseon dynasty, and they treated Joseon as a mother country.

Qing government announced the definition of Manchu and prohibited the term 'Jurchen' referring to them. The half of Manchu tribes were Korean tribes by the Qing's definition of Manchu.

Definition of Manchu from "The origin of Manchu (滿洲源流考)" [1]
Manchu Tribe 1: Suksin (肅愼, Jurchen), Buyeo(夫余, Korean)
Manchu Tribe 2: Yilou (挹娄, Ainu), Samhan(三韩, Korean), and Mulgil (勿吉, Jurchen)
Manchu Tribe 3: Baekje(百济, Korean)
Manchu Tribe 4: Silla(新羅, Korean)
Manchu Tribe 5: Malgal(靺鞨, Jurchen)
Manchu Tribe 6: Balhae(渤海, Korean)
Manchu Tribe 7: Wanan (完颜, Korean royal family and Jurchens), and GeonJu (建州, Jurchen)

Genetic analysis of Koreans and Manchus
According to genetic analysis using Y-chromosome, Manchus are closest to Koreans than any other ethnics in comparisons [5].

Y-chromosome analysis. Koreans are closet to Manchus. KOR(Korean), MAN(Manchu), KCN(Korean Chinese), NHN(North Chinese), JPN(Japanese). (From Katoh's paper 2005)
In this study, both Korean and Korean Chinese (ethnic Koreans living in China) are genetically closest to Manchus. Interestingly Manchus are genetically closer to Koreans than Mongols. it is consistent with the Qing's definition of Manchu tribes in which Korean tribes are majority. It is believed that the population of ethnic Koreans in Goguryeo and Balhae dynasty contributed to main Manchu population in Jin dynasty.

Northern Han Chinese were not as close to Manchu as the Koreans and Japanese are, but not as far away than the other ethnics. Current north China was traditional Altaic people's homeland, and Altaic people conquered and colonized China many times. Through history, Chinese were mixed with them . Khitan and Jurchen people governed Northern China during 10~12th century (Liao and Jin dynasty). Mongol and Manchu people governed whole China during 13~14th and 17~20th century (Yuan and Qing dynasty). There are many non-Han Chinese dynasties in Chinese history. Other studies show that genetic distance between Southern Han Chinese and Manchu is big.
click to see Altaic influence on Chinese

[1] Qing governement, "The origin of Manchu(滿洲源流考)", 1777, http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E6%BB...B5%81%E8%80%83
[2] 大宋宣和遺事, http://open-lit.com/showlit.php?gbid=347&cid=1
[3] the history of Jin(金史), http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E9%87...%B2/%E5%8D%B71
[4] Sin Chaeho, "Joseon Sanggosa", 1931, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseon_Sanggosa
[5] Toru Katoh, et. al., "Genetic features of Mongolian ethnic groups revealed by Y-chromosomal analysis", **Gene**, Volume 346, 14 February 2005, Pages 63-70. web link
[6] Wontack Hong, "How Did the Rulers of the Jin and Qing Dynasties Trace Their Ancestors? The Manchu Origins", EAST ASIAN HISTORY: A KOREAN PERSPECTIVE Vol. 1. No. 2. 2005. 1. 1. http://www.upkorea.net/news/photo/4908-2-4504.pdf
[7] "Hanpu", wikipedia.org. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanpu
[8] Juha Janhunen, "Tracing Bear totemism in Northeast Asia", http://src-h.slav.hokudai.ac.jp/publ...1-janhunen.pdf
[9] "The founder of Jin dynasty, Agolta was a descendent of Silla", History special, KBS, 2009, http://www.kbs.co.kr/1tv/sisa/histor...745_30885.html

RollingWave · 11-06-2009, 10:05 AM

Ehh, this subject is highly debatable. The Korean Kingdom of Goguryeo encompassed today's North Korea, part of South Korea, and a part of modern day Machuria in China, this is the source of the debate really, most of the Machurian native tribes were either part of or a tributory to the Goguryeo kingdom at it's height, and the kingdom of Balhae, that claims to be a successor kingdom of Goguryeo, was also largely based in Manchuria. but does that make them Korean? by similar standards, aren't Koreans (and Mongols, and Vietnamnese, and Tibetians, and Uyger and a large variety of other ethnicities)also Chinese?

The Korean stances on this subject is basically what you wrote, it's kinda ticked off a lot of Chinese (both scholar and general populace) in that it really goes a good ways to twist evidence and make it sound like what it's not.

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Let's just look at the main source from which most of the other books derive their quote from, the offical history of Jin 金史.

you quoted this line.

Quote:

金之始祖諱函普，初從高麗來，年已六十餘矣

This quote is from the start of the second paragraph of the first chapter discussing the origin of the Jin.

The problem is this line completely overlook the first whole paragraph. which was

http://zh.wikisource.org/zh-hant/%E9...%B2/%E5%8D%B71

Quote:

金之先，出靺鞨氏。靺鞨本號勿吉。勿吉，古肅慎地也。元魏時，勿吉有七部：曰粟末部、曰伯咄部、曰安車骨部、曰拂涅部、曰號室部、曰黑水部、曰白山部。隋稱靺鞨，而七部並同。唐初，有黑水靺鞨、粟末靺鞨，其五部無聞。粟末靺鞨始附高麗，姓大氏。李績破高麗，粟末靺鞨保東牟山。後爲渤海，稱王，傳十餘世。有文字、禮樂、官府、制度。有五京、十五府、六十二州。黑水靺鞨居肅慎地，東瀕海，南接高麗，亦附於高麗。嘗以兵十五萬衆助高麗拒唐太宗，敗於安市。開元中，來朝，置黑水府，以部長爲都督、刺史，置長史監之。賜都督姓李氏，名獻誠，領黑水經略使。其後渤海盛強，黑水役屬之，朝貢遂絕。五代時，契丹盡取渤海地，而黑水靺鞨附屬於契丹。其在南者籍契丹，號熟女直；其在北者不在契丹籍，號生女直。生女直地有混同江、長白山，混同江亦號黑龍江，所謂「白山黑水」是也。　　

金之始祖諱函普，初從高麗來，年已六十餘矣。

It says "The origin of the Jin, comes from the Mo He tribes, Mo He's was orginally called Wu Ji, Wu Ji originated from the ancient land of Su Sen. During the Northern Wei dynasty, they were divided into 7 tribes , the Su Mo, Bo Juo, An Che Gu, Fo Nie, Hao Shi, Hei Sui (black water), Bei Shan (white mountain). the Sui dynasty called them all as Mo He, while the Tang dynasty noted the Su Mo and Hei Sui clans and not the other 5, The Su Mo clan was a tributory to Goguryeo and after the Tang invasion (that eventually destroyed Goguryeo) they retained the area and form the kingdom of Balhae where they were kings for many generation.

I don't have time to translate the whole thing, but basically, the key issue here is that this is open to some serious interpetation, yes Koerans are Altac people and closer genetically to the Machurians . but that's a pretty thin line to draw the base of Machu = Korean. during Goguryeo times the Mo He tribes were essentially tributory tribes at the edges of the kingdom. much like how the Uyghur tribes (along with a ton of others) were tributory to the Tang at that time. that didn't make the Uyghur Chinese. When the Goguryeo kingdom was destroyed by Tang and Sillia, the remanents of the Goguryeo state merged with the Manchurian tribes to form the Kingdom of Balhae. and after Balhae was destroyed by the Khitans, that connection pretty much ended.

You quoted the first line from the next paragraph which is rather questionable, as it makes it sound like the man originated from Korea, when in fact when you read the whole first paragraph you get the impression that because his tribes were aliled with Goguryeo and Balhae, it is likely that he could be living in modern day Korea in his younger days.

This is like saying that Pople Victor I was from Africa .... without any other pretext, which would make it sound like he's African when infact he's a Italian born in a Roman province in north Africa.

altaicmania · 11-07-2009, 02:49 AM

Please watch the documentary first before you post a reply. The point is "the royal family and central regime of Jin and Qing was from Korea" besides Balhae (Korean) tribes. So we can call them Korean descendants.

Quote:

but does that make them Korean? by similar standards, aren't Koreans (and Mongols, and Vietnamnese, and Tibetians, and Uyger and a large variety of other ethnicities)also Chinese?

Chinese never been royal family or central regime of Korea, Mogol, Vietnamnese, Tibetans, and Uygur. So they are not Chinese descendants.

Quote:

The Korean stances on this subject is basically what you wrote, it's kinda ticked off a lot of Chinese (both scholar and general populace) in that it really goes a good ways to twist evidence and make it sound like what it's not.

You can see a Chinese history professor in this video explaining. Please watch the video before posting.

The Chinese professor said: "Jurchens with Silla royal family and Goryeo became a ethnic group with common culture and language".

Quote:

it is likely that he could be living in modern day Korea in his younger days.

No. He came FIRST from Goyreo in the sentence. This is how Chinese distorts the simple fact written in the book.

金之始祖諱函普，"初"從高麗來

初 chū at first; (at the) beginning; first; junior; basic (from Chinese-English dictionary http://www.mandarintools.com/worddict.html)

So, the orignator of Jin dynast (諱函) came FIRST from Korea. He had never been in Jurchen's area before.

Another thing, some Chinese distort history as if he came to Manchuria early, so he became a person of Junchen, and lost identity as Silla. This is also not true. This book explains when he came. His age was 60 (六十) when he came first from Korea.

金之始祖諱函普，初從高麗來年已"六十"餘矣

Isn't it surprising how Chinese distort history? It is all in one line. If you can read or just look at Chinese dictionary, you can see what is the truth easily, Chinese are just hiding truth with lies.

And please read the article before you post. There is very important record written by Song Chinese who visited Jin dynasty. Song Chinese wrote that the king of Jin dynasty was a person of Silla. It shows that the royal family of Jurchen was called people of Silla even after Jin dynasty was founded. This is extremely important record because it was written by Chinese during Jin dynasty.

The king of the Jurchens is a person of Silla.
女真酋長乃新羅人 (in 松漠記聞 (洪皓, 宋), 1129, written by Song Chinese)

This part is so clearly written that it is NOT disputable among historians. Only Chinese who want to hide the origin of Manchu history from Korea dispute and distort the truth.

RollingWave · 11-07-2009, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by altaicmania

Chinese never been royal family or central regime of Korea, Mogol, Vietnamnese, Tibetans, and Uygur. So they are not Chinese descendants.

really, if we're going to use similar standards of believing people's claim of far stretch ancestorship, then we should put this on the table as well no?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gija_Joseon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiman_of_Gojoseon

altaicmania · 11-07-2009, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RollingWave

really, if we're going to use similar standards of believing people's claim of far stretch ancestorship, then we should put this on the table as well no?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gija_Joseon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiman_of_Gojoseon

Gija is not accepted by historians. Wiman is also only appear in Chinese record and not trustable. Also, Chinese record says that Wiman exiled to Korea NOT conquest. Moreover, they are history 2000 years ago when bunch of tribes lived without a strong centralized government.

Jin and Qing dynasty had strong centralized government. And they conquered China and colonized China until 1912. So, Gija and Wiman cases cannot be compared to Jin and Qing dynasty.

Please read the title again "Korean descendants conquered China". Gija and Wiman cases are even not related to conquest.

altaicmania · 11-07-2009, 05:47 AM

The importance of the origin of Jin dynasty from a Korean is in the fact that he is the originator of the dynasty. It explains the property of the dynasty and the royal family. Because the Korean guy is the originator of Jin, we can say them Korean descendants. More importantly, historic records say he is from Korea, and his descendants in royal family are originally Koreans. There is no record about Gija and Wiman's descendants as Chinese.

It is common that bloody line mix with different people. But, the originator and the founder determines the property of a dynasty. The originator of the Ancient Korean kingdom, Gojoseon, is Dangun who is Korean. So Gija and Wiman cases don't have any significant effect on Gojoseon history. Besides, they are just only on Chinese book 2000 years ago which is not trustable.

Jin and Qing's cases are written in a lot of different history sources and consistent in Chinese, Korean, Manchu, and Mongol history records.

tksensei · 11-07-2009, 06:21 AM

Korean nationalism always manifests in such interesting ways...

RollingWave · 11-07-2009, 07:32 AM

Ah yes, so when it's the other way around you will say the records are untrustworthy? I do agree that Gija is probably at least mostly mythical, and yes Wiman is an exiled man, but then your making it sound like WanYian Aguda is a direct decendent of Goguryeo kings and was send on to conquest?

More over, I'm replying to your statement of "no chinese man ruled Korea and other places." whatever the circumstances was with Wiman, he ended up ruling Korea. more over, wether real or not, what happened next was surely real , as in the Han dynasty ended up destroying whatever Korean authority that was there in 108 b.c , and had DIRECT CONTROL over what is today's North Korea, while the other tribes in disentergrated and was not reformed until Gugoryeo came into being. So for most of the 1st century BC to around 3rd century AD (Goguryeo did not fully capture it back until 313 AD) , so there was at least a few hundred year span where the only real central authority in Korea was....... the Han dynasty court (and later Wei). So of course a guy claiming to be from a Kingdom that died out a few hundred years before him obviously count as Korean conquer China, but the Chinese dynasty actually ruling a large part of the Korean Penisula count as "no Chinese have every been a king of Korea"

Not to meantion your still not talking about why the history of the Jin would spend it's entire first paragraph on the Mo He people and THEN noting that the ancestor of WanYian Aguda (which if you actually read through the first chapter, it's supposedly his great great great great great great grandfather. i.e it was at least a wooping 7 generations ago.) came from Silla.

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I will again point out the obvious, many dynasties had "a story" about their ancestors and founding, and most of the time they're about as believable as the stories of those founders being born to heavenly music and angels / dragons appearing in the skies.

RollingWave · 11-07-2009, 08:15 AM

I know that I'm being very critical, but let's just say that I have been scared thoroughly by some of the Korean nationalism history that has shown up in recent years. This post is obviously a lot more based on facts, but really, when you see stuff like these it's hard to stay on the good side when regarding this topic.