Origins of Slavs: Archaeology, Linguistics, Anthropology, History

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Joined Dec 2009
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We have Gothic language, we have a lot of linguistic relicts of other gentes
But there is no proof that significant Gothic populations lived in basins of Vistula and Oder for a long time.

According to Polish historian Jerzy Wyrozumski they stayed there for relatively short time and then quickly migrated further south.

This would explain why vast majority of Roman era skulls from Vistula - Oder basins are not similar to Gothic and other Scandinavian skulls.
 
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But there is no proof that significant Gothic populations lived in basins of Vistula and Oder for a long time.
And there is proof for Slavs for the same period? That is interesting!

According to Polish historian Jerzy Wyrozumski they stayed there for relatively short time and then quickly migrated further south.
According to the Polish archaeologist this is completely different and a lot of recent research has shown, that migrations and ethnics were very flexible and therfoer it would surprise, that their should have been no exchange in the more than 200 years the Goths stayed along the Baltic coast and the Vistula estuary.

This would explain why vast majority of Roman era skulls from Vistula - Oder basins are not similar to Gothic and other Scandinavian skulls.
The researchers did not compare Goth's skulls with Slavic, but scandinavian skulls with slavic. BTW, during their migration Goth included lots of other people, intermarried wth Satrmatians and who knows with whom else. It would really interesting to see such typical "Goth" skull. It seems you are back at pseudo-science.
 
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And there is proof for Slavs for the same period? That is interesting!
For ancestors of Slavs, there is.

There is a proof that Wielbark, Przeworsk and Chernyakhovsk cultures were not Goths or Gepides, but some other people.

The researchers did not compare Goth's skulls with Slavic, but scandinavian skulls with slavic.
Goths came from Scandinavia.

Goths then migrated to the Roman Empire - they settled there and there they had Medieval descendants.
 
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BTW, during their migration Goth included lots of other people, intermarried wth Satrmatians and who knows with whom else.

Did Sarmatians live in the Vistula - Oder basin?

Goths originally came from Scandinavia and then migrated south and south-east.

They could intermarry with Sarmatians, but in what region did this take place ???

Before intermarring with Sarmatians, they did not have Sarmatian anthropological features.
 
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that their should have been no exchange in the more than 200 years the Goths stayed along the Baltic coast and the Vistula estuary.
There could be, but not numerically significant enough to change statistical range of skull shapes of locals.
 
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For ancestors of Slavs, there is.

There is a proof that Wielbark, Przeworsk and Chernyakhovsk cultures were not Goths or Gepides, but some other people.
Really and for Slavs?:lol::zany:
We can date these cultures and we have quite good informations from Roman and greek scholars who lived their during the Roman Iron Age and the Roman Imperial Age. Rugii, Gutones, Lemovici inside the Wielbark, Ambrones, Varini, Burgundiones, Helvaecones, Silingi, Naharnavales, Charini, Helisii... inside the Przeworsk. It is correct, that the origins of the Przeworsk-culture laid inside of the Pommeranian culture, a culture the bastarnae and Skirii are linked with e.g. and that the Przeworsk-culture is as well strongly influence in their beginning by celts (see Lugii), but it became more and more Germanic thru the centuries. The cernjachov is as well no east gothic or gothic culture. I have written it before, if not here in one of our other threads. There is evidence, that dakians were as well participating in the origins of that culture and there was big sarmatic influence as well. But there is as well evidence, that the Goth dominated, not from the beginning, there were the carpi as it seem dominant, but later.
 
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Did Sarmatians live in the Vistula - Oder basin?

Goths originally came from Scandinavia and then migrated south and south-east.

They could intermarry with Sarmatians, but in what region did this take place ???

Before intermarring with Sarmatians, they did not have Sarmatian anthropological features.
I wrote it above, the size of connection with Scandinavia is uncertain and some even question it. But if just a few Gauts came from Scandinavia and formed with Pommerian culture people the Oksywie or Wielbark culture, how will you find scandinavian skull in great numbers, especially if they did notonly bury their people but as well put them on pyres.
 
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as long as the Slavs did not went on to hide their existence untill they decided in 500 to make their existence public.
Uhm... In 500 they started interaction with and expansion into the Byzantine Empire (the only literate, civilized state in the area at that time), including the Balkans. This is why before that they were not known as Slavs (maybe they were known under other names, or maybe Slavic ethnogenesis took place very late - but they did not come from other planets, so there had to be Proto-Slavic populations already before).

Do you think those Germanics started to speak germanic when they put there feet on Roman soil and spoke Slavic before?
And do you think that Slavs suddenly started to speak Slavic after 500, when they "revealed themselves to history", and spoke Germanic before? Because Roman era populations in Vistula-Oder basins were direct ancestors of Medieval Slavic-speaking populations of the same area...

So all Roman era allegedly Germanic-speaking people in the Vistula-Oder basin suddenly started speaking Slavic languages after 500 ???

On the other hand, Scandinavian Goths were different from other populations of the Roman era Vistula-Oder area.
 
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Hey guys! Were there an influx of people from Scandinavia or not? I've read about Scandinavian influenced burials/stone circles.
 
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Uhm... In 500 they started interaction with and expansion into the Byzantine Empire (the only literate, civilized state in the area at that time), including the Balkans. This is why before that they were not known as Slavs (maybe they were known under other names, or maybe Slavic ethnogenesis took place very late - but they did not come from other planets, so there had to be Proto-Slavic populations already before).
and even about those Proto-Slavs is nothing known from the regions you would love to place their origins. Antes and Sclavines appear in the east and their, inside the Kiev-culture is their origin.

And do you think that Slavs suddenly started to speak Slavic after 500, when they "revealed themselves to history", and spoke Germanic before? Because Roman era populations in Vistula-Oder basins were direct ancestors of Medieval Slavic-speaking populations of the same area...
Slavs spoke an quite identical language around 900/1000. That shows, that their origins are young and not bronze aged or neolithic. Slavs did not set a single foot into the Vistula-Oder bassin before 450 CE!

So all Roman era allegedly Germanic-speaking people in the Vistula-Oder basin suddenly started speaking Slavic languages after 500 ???
Why did they immediately spoke Slavic in 500? In the time in which the western Slavs evolved as linguistic group there are for long no written sources. As I mentioned in other threads before, some relict groups existed till the 6th or early 7th century. The Vidivarii seem even to assimilate with Balts, before they disappeared among the Slavic Pomoranians.

On the other hand, Scandinavian Goths were different from other populations of the Roman era Vistula-Oder area.
The Goth's saga mentions three ships under Berig. Not that I would take this too serious, but they don't talk about a mass migration, but about a small group. The later Gutones/Gotones of the Wielbark-culture are a great gens. That means, that the few Gauts from Scandinavia weren't more than a Traditionskern. So that perfectly explains, why scandinavian skulls are different to Vistula-Oder skulls.
 
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we have a lot of linguistic relicts of other gentes, at least enough to identify them as germanics
Are over 40 Germanic words enough to "identify as germanics"?

There are over 40 words of Ancient Gothic origin in Slavic languages.
 
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Hey guys! Were there an influx of people from Scandinavia or not? I've read about Scandinavian influenced burials/stone circles.
I support an scandinavian influence, you mention correct the burials, stone circles. The question is simply is this necessarily meaning, that we had masses of Scandinavians there. We are Christians, use many mediterranian, oriental customs, but nevertheless is a jewish, roman or greek population quite unknown for our regions.
 
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Are over 40 Germanic words enough to "identify as germanics"?

There are over 40 words of Ancient Gothic origin in Slavic languages.
There is one slavic expression know in Gothic. I know more Inuit or Persian words in German!
 
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Slavs spoke an quite identical language around 900/1000. That shows, that their origins are young and not bronze aged or neolithic. Slavs did not set a single foot into the Vistula-Oder bassin before 450 CE!


Why did they immediately spoke Slavic in 500? In the time in which the western Slavs evolved as linguistic group there are for long no written sources. As I mentioned in other threads before, some relict groups existed till the 6th or early 7th century. The Vidivarii seem even to assimilate with Balts, before they disappeared among the Slavic Pomoranians.

@Beorna

You refer more than once here and in other threads to fact that Slavic of ninth century or tenth century was a young language and so far I have read nobody contradict that point of view with evidence.

I just fail to see what you are objecting to in Domen's thesis. Domen has presented the physical evidence for idea that population replacement from the East is unlikely. Among many other sentences in your reply you seem to acknowledge the anthropology evidence he provided.

If I may as a total layman ask a direct question to you, do you expect that a culture with very limited trade contact to classical civilizations of Rome, Dacia or Persia to have a language as complex and with comparable number of nouns and verb as the languages of other "barbarian" cultures that were in direct contact with the classical civilizations?

Would you expect such a culture to be speaking something nearer to the neolithic P.I.E. (proto IE) spoken language?
 
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????? The Roman era descendents of the Slavs spoke no Slavic? But they were Slavs? Sorry, but that is rediculous.

Such an intelligent person as you Beorna should not intentionally use such arguments ad absurdum. For me the message is clear, ancestors of Slavs who lived there adopted Slavic languages.

It is alredy well known that invaders who spoke slavic were in minority on the areas where they settled. There was no invasion of millions of people who took over half of Europe.

Its truth that slavic languages are young but it doesnt matter that God has created the Slavic people around 5th century out of nothing and that those people one day appeared in Europe. They were they before but spoke different languages. Who are the people living in Balkans? They are descedants of people who lived in those old Roman provinces but after slavic invasion started to use slavic language.
 
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We have Gothic language, we have a lot of linguistic relicts

What kind of relics?

Geographical names origins of which are disputed and many of them date to Proto-Indo-European language (like origins of the name of the river Vistla / Wisła / Vistula)? There is no any hard proof that geographical names in this part of Europe have origins in Germanic languages.
 
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There is one slavic expression know in Gothic.
At least two, if you count also sword (meki).

Gothic language is for a long time extinct and we don't know entire language, only some parts of it.

We know only some part of words from original Gothic language today (and even this part is known mostly from just one book - from the 4th century CE Bible translation to Gothic by Bishop Wulfila, who lived between 310 and 383 CE).

From Ostrogothic dialect (which survived in Crimea much longer than Visigothic in Spain) we know only 70 words, mostly thanks to 16th century writings of Ogier Ghiselin de Busbecq (while Visigothic language is known mostly from the 4th century Bible of Wulfila mentioned above).

Compare this to many thousands of Slavic words which are known nowadays (because unlike Ancient Gothic language, Slavic languages did not get extinct) - of which over 40 have Gothic origins.
 
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Slavs spoke an quite identical language around 900/1000. That shows, that their origins are young and not bronze aged or neolithic.
There are theories which say that there was one, identical Balto-Slavic language, from which around 1500 - 1300 BC emerged two languages - Baltic and Old Slavic. Old Slavic language then divided at the latest in 6th - 7th centuries to West Slavic, East Slavic, South Slavic.

Slavs spoke an quite identical language around 900/1000.
Spoke or wrote?

Slavic written language - Old Church Slavonic - developed from just one dialect of Slavic, in Bulgarian-Macedonian area. In spoken languages there could be more differences, until Old Church Slavonic (written language) spread back into Slavic Europe, influencing also spoken languages.
 
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@Beorna

You refer more than once here and in other threads to fact that Slavic of ninth century or tenth century was a young language and so far I have read nobody contradict that point of view with evidence.
Oh, it contradicts, because the thesis which is shown by domen is those of autochthonous Slavs in recent Poland. The "evidence" he presents shalll directly support this. The autochthonous Slavs were more than once used for political interests.

I just fail to see what you are objecting to in Domen's thesis. Domen has presented the physical evidence for idea that population replacement from the East is unlikely. Among many other sentences in your reply you seem to acknowledge the anthropology evidence he provided.
I question the accuracy of these research, the anthropological more than the genetic. I wrote above why. The difference between me and domen is, that he sees the population there as the direct forefathers of the Slavs and maybe as proto-Slavs. Genetically may this be, but these forefathers were neither Slavs nor proto-Slavs, they were germanics or celts or venetics or balts.

If I may as a total layman ask a direct question to you, do you expect that a culture with very limited trade contact to classical civilizations of Rome, Dacia or Persia to have a language as complex and with comparable number of nouns and verb as the languages of other "barbarian" cultures that were in direct contact with the classical civilizations?
I am no linguist, but the german language is full of words, for which in Latin exists only one expression. So I am not sure if high culture means more complex language. WE need our mate midas here.

Would you expect such a culture to be speaking something nearer to the neolithic P.I.E. (proto IE) spoken language?
Every poulation has a neighbour population or more. The Slavic language changed e.g. to a satem-language by indo-iranian influence. If we look at the corded ware culture, we should expect, that the indo-european populations inside these culture had still close relations. And this is supported by linguistic, which places Germanic, Slavic and baltic into a common branch. The difference is, that the western germanic did not participate in the satem shift. So to answer your question, archaizisms may have different reasons.
 
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Every poulation has a neighbour population or more.
Balto-Slavs were one ethno-linguistic group in the past.

Baltic languages are more closely related to Slavic languages than any other still existing, modern language.

The autochthonous Slavs were more than once used for political interests.
The autochthonous Eastern Germanic tribes were used for political interests more than once as well.

So what ???
 
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