Why Africa did not have native "great empires"?

VHS

Joined Dec 2015
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As far as the mind can reach
Ghana, Mali and Songhai empires were large by African standards, but they were "small" in comparison with the various Chinese dynasties, Persian Empires, Indian empires, (not to say the vast empires such as the Mongolian empire, British Empire, Spanish Empire.)
Algeria is larger than any native African empires.
A few "empires" sound like rather sorry excuses for empires: Wolof empire (no bigger than modern Senegal), Benin Empire, Asante Empire, etc.
I remember the trend about "smallest empires", though.
 
Joined Jan 2016
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Indiana, United States
Ghana, Mali and Songhai empires were large by African standards, but they were "small" in comparison with the various Chinese dynasties, Persian Empires, Indian empires, (not to say the vast empires such as the Mongolian empire, British Empire, Spanish Empire.)
Algeria is larger than any native African empires.
A few "empires" sound like rather sorry excuses for empires: Wolof empire (no bigger than modern Senegal), Benin Empire, Asante Empire, etc.
I remember the trend about "smallest empires", though.

It isn't that Mali or Songhai or Ghana were particularly small, it is simply that the empires you mentioned were very big.

The reason behind this was simple. China, India, and Persia all had similar ethnic groups and have natural geographic features that help condense those ethnic groups, where as the geographic features of Africa divided its many, many ethnic groups.

Africa was and is incredibly diverse, and in modern day we fail to realize this because, let's face it, we marginalize the entire continent as being some tribal backwater of war and poverty. The truth is that, through all of history, Africa had been home to many cultures. The various cultures of medieval Europe had far more similarity to each other than the cultures of Africa in that same time period. Trying to conflate, say, West Africans to South Africans is erroneous. That diversity hampered the ability of geographically large empires to unite.
 
Joined Jun 2015
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UK
Ghana, Mali and Songhai empires were large by African standards, but they were "small" in comparison with the various Chinese dynasties, Persian Empires, Indian empires, (not to say the vast empires such as the Mongolian empire, British Empire, Spanish Empire.)
Algeria is larger than any native African empires.
A few "empires" sound like rather sorry excuses for empires: Wolof empire (no bigger than modern Senegal), Benin Empire, Asante Empire, etc.
I remember the trend about "smallest empires", though.

Africa is a huge continent. Coupled with lesser transportation and communications means.
 
Joined Apr 2011
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Finland
Ghana, Mali and Songhai empires were large by African standards, but they were "small" in comparison with the various Chinese dynasties, Persian Empires, Indian empires, (not to say the vast empires such as the Mongolian empire, British Empire, Spanish Empire.)
Algeria is larger than any native African empires.
A few "empires" sound like rather sorry excuses for empires: Wolof empire (no bigger than modern Senegal), Benin Empire, Asante Empire, etc.
I remember the trend about "smallest empires", though.

Egypt is in Africa. Lasted longer than other empires combined too.
 
Joined Jul 2012
3,249 Posts | 1,783+
Benin City, Nigeria
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Ghana, Mali and Songhai empires were large by African standards, but they were "small" in comparison with the various Chinese dynasties, Persian Empires, Indian empires, (not to say the vast empires such as the Mongolian empire, British Empire, Spanish Empire.)
Algeria is larger than any native African empires.
A few "empires" sound like rather sorry excuses for empires: Wolof empire (no bigger than modern Senegal), Benin Empire, Asante Empire, etc.
I remember the trend about "smallest empires", though.

For the most part, western authors were the ones who labeled certain historical states as being empires (though some later non-Western historians working under the influence of western education or western historiography did also use such terminology). I am not saying that there are no non-Indo-European languages which have words that are more or less the equivalent of "empire" (I do not know the vocabulary of all languages and could not possibly make that claim) but I am saying that one should keep in mind that much of the classification of certain states as empires arose primarily from "Occidental" historical writing. The designation of states like Benin or Asante as empires was mostly done by Europeans and some of these designations occurred while these states were still existing (this was certainly the case for Benin and Asante). So it cannot be about "African standards" in cases like those, but would most likely have to be about "European standards" for what constituted an empire. If multiple European writers thought these states were empires at some point, they probably were not just determining this by "African standards."

Songhai, Mali, Kush, Aksum, Kanem-Bornu, and possibly Egypt, Ghana, and Gao would have been considered large states pretty much anywhere in the world when they were at their greatest extent, but the reason they were considered empires probably had more to do with the fact that these states had an organized central government that had sovereignty over many diverse peoples, rather than because they met some exact geographic requirement about size. A geographically large kingdom ruling only one group of people who all have the exact same language and culture is really not an empire in the strict sense of the word, while a geographically smaller state in which the central government has political power/influence over numerous different peoples practicing different cultures probably would be considered an empire in most cases.

People still refer to the Assyrian empire, Akkadian empire, Babylonian empire, etc. as "great empires" and these were either the same size as or geographically smaller than most of the aforementioned African states. The "Austro-Hungarian empire", "Carolingian empire" and "Swedish empire" in Europe and some other empires in Asia are still called empires and they were also geographically smaller than some of the largest historical African states (the ones I mentioned in the paragraph immediately above). These states might be viewed as not meeting some people's ideal geographic requirements for what constitutes an empire, but many other people all around the world still describe these states as empires anyway.

And this is besides the point, but I should state this just for the record: if the estimates for sizes of empires given on various internet sites (which mostly derive from estimates in academic sources, presumably) are basically correct, then it would actually be incorrect to claim that Songhai and Mali were smaller than all of the various Indian and Chinese dynasties - the very largest ones were larger, sure, but not all of them, actually.

As for Algeria (which is mostly empty desert, anyway), it is barely larger than the DR Congo, and both countries are larger than multiple historical states from around the world that have been designated "empires", not just those from Africa.
 
Joined Aug 2015
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wish it was Constantinople
zulu empire for one. then theres a couple ancient ones like egypt and mali. the african people weren't really with interaction with the rest of the world, leading it to small changes in development.
 
Joined Jul 2012
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Benin City, Nigeria
zulu empire for one. then theres a couple ancient ones like egypt and mali. the african people weren't really with interaction with the rest of the world, leading it to small changes in development.

Several parts of Africa did interact with the rest of the world significantly.
 

VHS

Joined Dec 2015
9,459 Posts | 1,223+
As far as the mind can reach
For the most part, western authors were the ones who labeled certain historical states as being empires (though some later non-Western historians working under the influence of western education or western historiography did also use such terminology). I am not saying that there are no non-Indo-European languages which have words that are more or less the equivalent of "empire" (I do not know the vocabulary of all languages and could not possibly make that claim) but I am saying that one should keep in mind that much of the classification of certain states as empires arose primarily from "Occidental" historical writing. The designation of states like Benin or Asante as empires was mostly done by Europeans and some of these designations occurred while these states were still existing (this was certainly the case for Benin and Asante). So it cannot be about "African standards" in cases like those, but would most likely have to be about "European standards" for what constituted an empire. If multiple European writers thought these states were empires at some point, they probably were not just determining this by "African standards."

Songhai, Mali, Kush, Aksum, Kanem-Bornu, and possibly Egypt, Ghana, and Gao would have been considered large states pretty much anywhere in the world when they were at their greatest extent, but the reason they were considered empires probably had more to do with the fact that these states had an organized central government that had sovereignty over many diverse peoples, rather than because they met some exact geographic requirement about size. A geographically large kingdom ruling only one group of people who all have the exact same language and culture is really not an empire in the strict sense of the word, while a geographically smaller state in which the central government has political power/influence over numerous different peoples practicing different cultures probably would be considered an empire in most cases.

People still refer to the Assyrian empire, Akkadian empire, Babylonian empire, etc. as "great empires" and these were either the same size as or geographically smaller than most of the aforementioned African states. The "Austro-Hungarian empire", "Carolingian empire" and "Swedish empire" in Europe and some other empires in Asia are still called empires and they were also geographically smaller than some of the largest historical African states (the ones I mentioned in the paragraph immediately above). These states might be viewed as not meeting some people's ideal geographic requirements for what constitutes an empire, but many other people all around the world still describe these states as empires anyway.

And this is besides the point, but I should state this just for the record: if the estimates for sizes of empires given on various internet sites (which mostly derive from estimates in academic sources, presumably) are basically correct, then it would actually be incorrect to claim that Songhai and Mali were smaller than all of the various Indian and Chinese dynasties - the very largest ones were larger, sure, but not all of them, actually.

As for Algeria (which is mostly empty desert, anyway), it is barely larger than the DR Congo, and both countries are larger than multiple historical states from around the world that have been designated "empires", not just those from Africa.

Written Chinese has a term for "empire", which is "帝国“, but it is linked with terms like ”帝国主义“ (imperialism) and so.
The well-known historian, Huang, Renyu, divided the Chinese Empire into three stages: The first empire (Qin and Han); the Second Empire (Sui, Tang, and Song); and the third empire (Ming and Qing).
(Oh well, the only Indo-European language that I'm relatively familiar with is English, though; Chinese is a Sino-Tibetan language.)
 
Joined Mar 2012
3,316 Posts | 62+
Ghana, Mali and Songhai empires were large by African standards, but they were "small" in comparison with the various Chinese dynasties, Persian Empires, Indian empires, (not to say the vast empires such as the Mongolian empire, British Empire, Spanish Empire.)
Algeria is larger than any native African empires.
A few "empires" sound like rather sorry excuses for empires: Wolof empire (no bigger than modern Senegal), Benin Empire, Asante Empire, etc.
I remember the trend about "smallest empires", though.
Songhay was probably larger than the majority of Western European empires or states at the time. And I am pretty sure there were European states and empires as small as Benin or Asante. Was Luxembourg an empire?
 

VHS

Joined Dec 2015
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As far as the mind can reach
Songhay was probably larger than the majority of Western European empires or states at the time. And I am pretty sure there were European states and empires as small as Benin or Asante. Was Luxembourg an empire?

Luxembourg isn't even a kingdom; it is a grand duchy!
Even though, multicultural or multinational states are the norm rather than the exception today.
 
Joined Mar 2012
3,316 Posts | 62+
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Luxembourg isn't even a kingdom; it is a grand duchy!
Even though, multicultural or multinational states are the norm rather than the exception today.
My bigger point was that Songhay was larger than any contemporary European state or empire. In a matter if fact, it was probably larger than the whole of Western Europe combined. I find it odd that you would dismiss the size of Songhay as too small, while at the same time have nothing to say about significantly smaller Western states at the time.
 
Joined Jul 2012
3,249 Posts | 1,783+
Benin City, Nigeria
Written Chinese has a term for "empire", which is "帝国“, but it is linked with terms like ”帝国主义“ (imperialism) and so.
The well-known historian, Huang, Renyu, divided the Chinese Empire into three stages: The first empire (Qin and Han); the Second Empire (Sui, Tang, and Song); and the third empire (Ming and Qing).
(Oh well, the only Indo-European language that I'm relatively familiar with is English, though; Chinese is a Sino-Tibetan language.)

Thanks for that information.

I am curious though: is it actually the case that in all or most of Chinese historical scholarship, only those seven dynasties are considered empires or imperial?
 
Joined Jul 2012
3,249 Posts | 1,783+
Benin City, Nigeria
My bigger point was that Songhay was larger than any contemporary European state or empire. In a matter if fact, it was probably larger than the whole of Western Europe combined. I find it odd that you would dismiss the size of Songhay as too small, while at the same time have nothing to say about significantly smaller Western states at the time.

Well the Spanish empire overlaps with the timeline of Songhai. It was already larger than Songhai before Songhai fell to the Moroccans. The basic idea of your point is obviously valid though.
 
Joined Jan 2015
1,309 Posts | 18+
meo
My bigger point was that Songhay was larger than any contemporary European state or empire. In a matter if fact, it was probably larger than the whole of Western Europe combined. I find it odd that you would dismiss the size of Songhay as too small, while at the same time have nothing to say about significantly smaller Western states at the time.
People tend to forget how small Europe is compared to the other continents.
 
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what about Carthage? What about the Barbary pirates? Both held massive empires based in Africa.
 

VHS

Joined Dec 2015
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As far as the mind can reach
Thanks for that information.

I am curious though: is it actually the case that in all or most of Chinese historical scholarship, only those seven dynasties are considered empires or imperial?

These are the dynasties or empires that ruled the entire Chinese heartland (the Chinese heartland include most of the current People's Republic of China, except for provinces such as Tibet, Xinjiang, Guizhou, Yunnan, Inner Mongolia, Heilongjiang, Jilin, and Liaoning.)
The Northern Song Dynasty and Qin Dynasty did not control all of the Chinese heartland, but they unified what was considered Chinese people under a crown. Especially Qin Dynasty; during the time, the current prosperous Guangdong province wasn't developed YET.
Many smaller empires and states existed when the unitary government wasn't present.
When the Chinese royal house fled south and formed the Eastern Jin dynasty, many empires and kingdoms were formed in the north.
While Northern Song controlled much of Chinese heartland, a few states were in the periphery: Liao Empire, Xixia Empire, Kingdom of Dali.
 
Joined Dec 2015
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California, USA
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There were large empires and kingdoms in North Africa and East Africa such as Egypt, Carthage, Axumite kingdom, and the Islamic empires (some of whom owed their allegiance outside of Africa). There were also some West African Empires that arose (probably due to interaction with the North African Islamic Empires)

These were connected with the rest of civilization via trade-routes, shared biomes, etc., which allowed them to participate in the development of civilization.

Sub-Saharan Africa was disconnected from the rest of civilization, just like the Americas, which meant that it could not develop at the same rate as the Eurasian civilizations, which shared their discoveries and developments with each other.

Finally, the presence of a large threat from nomadic raiders coming out of the Steppe gave Asian civilizations a major incentive to develop large empires to be able to combat this threat.
 

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