Joined Nov 2016
1,531 Posts | 5+
Indus Valley, Pakistan
Decades of research shows the gradual movement of the neolithic from Near East moving east toward Indus. For example all the proto Indus cities are in west of the Indus region like Mehr Garh, Mundigakh or Rehman Dheri. Now this claim is turning all the avaliable facts upside down by suggesting it came from the east. It smacks of agenda.
That is why I said earlier soon I expect we are going to hear claims that the Indus Civilization came east from the Ganga Delta on the Bay of Bengal and the timeline will be taken back to the Jurrasic.
https://www.thoughtco.com/mehrgarh-pakistan-life-indus-valley-171796
The Near-Eastern Roots of the Neolithic in South Asia
That is why I said earlier soon I expect we are going to hear claims that the Indus Civilization came east from the Ganga Delta on the Bay of Bengal and the timeline will be taken back to the Jurrasic.
https://www.thoughtco.com/mehrgarh-pakistan-life-indus-valley-171796
The Near-Eastern Roots of the Neolithic in South Asia
http://historum.com/asian-history/99142-bhirrana-india-7500-bc.html
(oldest IVC site)
Bhirrana predates Mehrgarh by about 500 years.
(oldest IVC site)
Bhirrana predates Mehrgarh by about 500 years.
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Neolithic expansion only explains farming and pottery making. But has not much to do with IVC. If this was the case you would find more old civilisations like Egypt or Mesopotamia in or near the Middle East. Elamites in Iran for example didn't appear untill 2700 BC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cradle_of_civilizationhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cradle_of_civilization#Indus_Valley
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cradle_of_civilizationhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cradle_of_civilization#Indus_Valley
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dravidian_people#Indus_Valley_Civilization
Indus Valley Civilisation
The Indus Valley civilisation (3,300-1,900 BCE), located in Northwestern Indian subcontinent, is often identified as having been Dravidian.[53] Cultural and linguistic similarities have been cited by researchers Henry Heras, Kamil Zvelebil, Asko Parpola and Iravatham Mahadevan as being strong evidence for a proto-Dravidian origin of the ancient Indus Valley civilisation.[54] [55] The discovery in Tamil Nadu of a late Neolithic (early 2nd millennium BCE, i.e. post-dating Harappan decline) stone celt allegedly marked with Indus signs has been considered by some to be significant for the Dravidian identification.[56] [57]
Yuri Knorozov surmised that the symbols represent a logosyllabic script and suggested, based on computer analysis, an underlying agglutinative Dravidian language as the most likely candidate for the underlying language.[58] Knorozov's suggestion was preceded by the work of Henry Heras, who suggested several readings of signs based on a proto-Dravidian assumption.[59]
Linguist Asko Parpola writes that the Indus script and Harappan language are "most likely to have belonged to the Dravidian family".[60] Parpola led a Finnish team in investigating the inscriptions using computer analysis. Based on a proto-Dravidian assumption, they proposed readings of many signs, some agreeing with the suggested readings of Heras and Knorozov (such as equating the "fish" sign with the Dravidian word for fish, "min") but disagreeing on several other readings. A comprehensive description of Parpola's work until 1994 is given in his book Deciphering the Indus Script.[61]
Indus Valley Civilisation
The Indus Valley civilisation (3,300-1,900 BCE), located in Northwestern Indian subcontinent, is often identified as having been Dravidian.[53] Cultural and linguistic similarities have been cited by researchers Henry Heras, Kamil Zvelebil, Asko Parpola and Iravatham Mahadevan as being strong evidence for a proto-Dravidian origin of the ancient Indus Valley civilisation.[54] [55] The discovery in Tamil Nadu of a late Neolithic (early 2nd millennium BCE, i.e. post-dating Harappan decline) stone celt allegedly marked with Indus signs has been considered by some to be significant for the Dravidian identification.[56] [57]
Yuri Knorozov surmised that the symbols represent a logosyllabic script and suggested, based on computer analysis, an underlying agglutinative Dravidian language as the most likely candidate for the underlying language.[58] Knorozov's suggestion was preceded by the work of Henry Heras, who suggested several readings of signs based on a proto-Dravidian assumption.[59]
Linguist Asko Parpola writes that the Indus script and Harappan language are "most likely to have belonged to the Dravidian family".[60] Parpola led a Finnish team in investigating the inscriptions using computer analysis. Based on a proto-Dravidian assumption, they proposed readings of many signs, some agreeing with the suggested readings of Heras and Knorozov (such as equating the "fish" sign with the Dravidian word for fish, "min") but disagreeing on several other readings. A comprehensive description of Parpola's work until 1994 is given in his book Deciphering the Indus Script.[61]
Joined Jun 2016
22 Posts | 0+
NJ
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may i ask when this has become the standard to say? (that the dravidians built the Harappan Civilization?)
I always had a big feeling and intuitively knew this myself, but is this common professionalism? What links can I quote when I say this, or have to use to back up just in case somebody starts to doubt me??????? Can you provide a link or two maybe three please...
Oh nevermind, you answered that.
Then let me ask another question:
Are Dravidians Elamites from Sumer??
Or are the Dravidians earlier than Sumer and the Elamites?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elamo-Dravidian_languages
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Dravidian_language
https://www.harappa.com/answers/there-any-connection-between-elam-mesopotamia-and-indus-valley-civilization
Joined Nov 2016
1,531 Posts | 5+
Indus Valley, Pakistan
Just a a thought. Wikipedia is open source. Meaning any Tom, .... or Hari can plaster it with rubbish. As a general rule Wiki is the last place you go for anything that might be contestable or controversial. In short it's a place for fanboys to write fiction. Do note the link I posted was from a peer reviewed published academic paper. And it shows the gradual movement from present day Iraq to Pakistan. West to East. Not the other way round.
The Near-Eastern Roots of the Neolithic in South Asia
Abstract
The Fertile Crescent in the Near East is one of the independent origins of the Neolithic, the source from which farming and pottery-making spread across Europe from 9,000 to 6,000 years ago at an average rate of about 1 km/yr. There is also strong evidence for causal connections between the Near-Eastern Neolithic and that further east, up to the Indus Valley. The Neolithic in South Asia has been far less explored than its European counterpart, especially in terms of absolute (14C) dating; hence, there were no previous attempts to assess quantitatively its spread in Asia. We combine the available 14C data with the archaeological evidence for early Neolithic sites in South Asia to analyze the spatio-temporal continuity of the Neolithic dispersal from the Near East through the Middle East and to the Indian subcontinent. We reveal an approximately linear dependence between the age and the geodesic distance from the Near East, suggesting a systematic (but not necessarily uniform) spread at an average speed of about 0.65 km/yr.
Figures
Citation: Gangal K, Sarson GR, Shukurov A (2014) The Near-Eastern Roots of the Neolithic in South Asia. PLoS ONE9(5): e95714. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0095714
Editor: David Caramelli, University of Florence, Italy
Received: November 16, 2013; Accepted: March 28, 2014; Published: May 7, 2014
Copyright: © 2014 Gangal et al. This is an open-access article distributed under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution License, which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original author and source are credited.
Funding: This work was funded by: 1. School of Mathematics and Statistics of the University of Newcastle upon Tyne, 2. The Leverhulme Trust (Research Grant F/00 125/AD). The funders had no role in study design, data collection and analysis, decision to publish, or preparation of the manuscript.
Competing interests: The authors have declared that no competing interests exist.
The Near-Eastern Roots of the Neolithic in South Asia
Abstract
The Fertile Crescent in the Near East is one of the independent origins of the Neolithic, the source from which farming and pottery-making spread across Europe from 9,000 to 6,000 years ago at an average rate of about 1 km/yr. There is also strong evidence for causal connections between the Near-Eastern Neolithic and that further east, up to the Indus Valley. The Neolithic in South Asia has been far less explored than its European counterpart, especially in terms of absolute (14C) dating; hence, there were no previous attempts to assess quantitatively its spread in Asia. We combine the available 14C data with the archaeological evidence for early Neolithic sites in South Asia to analyze the spatio-temporal continuity of the Neolithic dispersal from the Near East through the Middle East and to the Indian subcontinent. We reveal an approximately linear dependence between the age and the geodesic distance from the Near East, suggesting a systematic (but not necessarily uniform) spread at an average speed of about 0.65 km/yr.
Figures
Citation: Gangal K, Sarson GR, Shukurov A (2014) The Near-Eastern Roots of the Neolithic in South Asia. PLoS ONE9(5): e95714. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0095714
Editor: David Caramelli, University of Florence, Italy
Received: November 16, 2013; Accepted: March 28, 2014; Published: May 7, 2014
Copyright: © 2014 Gangal et al. This is an open-access article distributed under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution License, which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original author and source are credited.
Funding: This work was funded by: 1. School of Mathematics and Statistics of the University of Newcastle upon Tyne, 2. The Leverhulme Trust (Research Grant F/00 125/AD). The funders had no role in study design, data collection and analysis, decision to publish, or preparation of the manuscript.
Competing interests: The authors have declared that no competing interests exist.
Joined Mar 2017
3,238 Posts | 2+
United States
Mohenjo Daro followed by Harappa in Pakistan are the gold standard in Indus Valley cities. As the name "Indus" suggests they are concentrated along the River Indus.
You can zoom in on Google Earth [link below] and see the site of Mohenjo Daro which today is about 1 mile west of River Indus.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...adb98b8c6b!8m2!3d27.3242933!4d68.135689?hl=en
You are nit-picking here. India and Pakistan are exactly the same country. "Pakistan" is merely an artificial creation spawned by the collapse of the British Raj. In terms of culture, history, and languages, there is not a dimes worth of difference between India and Pakistan in spite of their being politically divided into separate polities. What is the heritage of one, is by extension the heritage of the other.
Joined Apr 2015
7,387 Posts | 2,040+
India
Pakistan should take the issue to UN to declare Radcliffe Line as the Easternmost boundary of Indus valley civilization.
Joined Apr 2015
7,387 Posts | 2,040+
India
Impact of change of course of Sutlej River -
River departed 'before Indus civilisation emergence' - BBC News
River departed 'before Indus civilisation emergence' - BBC News
Joined Jun 2012
15,528 Posts | 2,868+
Malaysia
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Try telling this thing, that their civilisation is younger, to the Egyptians.
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