What is the ethnicity of various Roman leaders such as Julius Caesar? Are Romans considered Caucasian just like, for example English people?
Joined Aug 2013
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Canada, originally Clwyd, N.Wales
It's hard to say, Romans themselves were of mixed stock. According to traditional sources when the city was founded they welcomed people who had no home themselves: outcasts, exiles, criminals, anybody. Julius Caesar would be considered caucasian, but his ethnicity identity had nothing to do with race, he was Roman. A Black African from North Africa who lived in Roman jurisprudence and was a citizen was Roman. Originally Romans were what I would say is caucasian, but that term is very broad and doesn't really account for nuanced ethnic identity.
There are cases though where leaders like Hadria, Trajan and Theodosius were all born in the province of Hispania, in Spain. They likely had celtic and Iberian ancestors, but they were Roman.
That is, if I understand the concept of Roman ethnicity correctly. There were 'others' in the Empire who were not seen to be Roman, but Romanized... the Britons and Germans for example.
Joined May 2009
710 Posts | 6+
New Jersey
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If you are talking about race, yes the typical Roman was Caucasian. I am pretty sure every Emperor was as well. That is every Emperor had facial features that matched those of Europeans and Middle Easterners.
Now not all Roman Emperors came from Rome or even the Italian Peninsula. As mentioned by Ben, Trajan and Hadrian were both from the region that is now known as Spain. Septimius Severus was from North Africa and his son Caracalla, who would later inherit the throne, was half Syrian on his Mother's side. There were some Germanic Emperors at the end of the Western Empire who would have had ancestry from Northern European regions. When the Western Empire fell the majority of Eastern Emperors would have been Greek or from other South Eastern European areas, like Constantine the Great who was born in what is now Serbia.
Now not all Roman Emperors came from Rome or even the Italian Peninsula. As mentioned by Ben, Trajan and Hadrian were both from the region that is now known as Spain. Septimius Severus was from North Africa and his son Caracalla, who would later inherit the throne, was half Syrian on his Mother's side. There were some Germanic Emperors at the end of the Western Empire who would have had ancestry from Northern European regions. When the Western Empire fell the majority of Eastern Emperors would have been Greek or from other South Eastern European areas, like Constantine the Great who was born in what is now Serbia.
Joined Mar 2012
3,474 Posts | 22+
Redneck Country, AKA Texas
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Caucasoid - mostly Alpinoid and Mediterranid;
I. Schwidetzky - Physical Anthropology of European Populations (1980)
On the whole, a remarkable polytypism results in all the Villanovian series. In particular, we consistently find, with even some preponderance in the S. Vitale stage, the brachymorphic type, with moderately low skull, curved occipital, and rather short stature, comparable to the Alpine race. Along with it, we also find a stenomorphic type, which can be attributed to the Mediterranean race,represented by some particular groups, the specimens having moderate dolichomorphy with rather broad frontal bone and medium stature, which can be found in the Benacci and Arnoaldi stages.
The Italic Romans are a hybrid of Indo-European [Umbrians/Italics] stock and non-Indo-European [Pelasgians (Oenotrians/Tyrsenoi)] stock which is reflected in their Anthropology; Also Emperors like Trajan and Hadrian who were born in foreign provinces were from veteran-colonies like ITALICA (in Baetica) i.e. of Italic stock;
Charles Loring Brace - The Races of the Old World (1863)
The common Roman type, still seen among the peasantry, according to Dr. Wiseman, is a large, flat head, a low wide forehead, a face broad and square, short thick neck, and a short broad figure, such as is found in many of the antique representations of the Roman soldier.
person of Latium (Central Italy) - Alpinoid -[plate: Rassengeschichte der Menschheit]
person of Marche (Central Italy) - Dinaric - [plate: Rassengeschichte der Menschheit]
Augustus and Julius Caesar
-typical Brachycephalic Alpinoid/Dinarid (Medit. element) of the Italic Romans
I. Schwidetzky - Physical Anthropology of European Populations (1980)
On the whole, a remarkable polytypism results in all the Villanovian series. In particular, we consistently find, with even some preponderance in the S. Vitale stage, the brachymorphic type, with moderately low skull, curved occipital, and rather short stature, comparable to the Alpine race. Along with it, we also find a stenomorphic type, which can be attributed to the Mediterranean race,represented by some particular groups, the specimens having moderate dolichomorphy with rather broad frontal bone and medium stature, which can be found in the Benacci and Arnoaldi stages.
The Italic Romans are a hybrid of Indo-European [Umbrians/Italics] stock and non-Indo-European [Pelasgians (Oenotrians/Tyrsenoi)] stock which is reflected in their Anthropology; Also Emperors like Trajan and Hadrian who were born in foreign provinces were from veteran-colonies like ITALICA (in Baetica) i.e. of Italic stock;
Charles Loring Brace - The Races of the Old World (1863)
The common Roman type, still seen among the peasantry, according to Dr. Wiseman, is a large, flat head, a low wide forehead, a face broad and square, short thick neck, and a short broad figure, such as is found in many of the antique representations of the Roman soldier.
person of Latium (Central Italy) - Alpinoid -[plate: Rassengeschichte der Menschheit]
person of Marche (Central Italy) - Dinaric - [plate: Rassengeschichte der Menschheit]
Augustus and Julius Caesar
-typical Brachycephalic Alpinoid/Dinarid (Medit. element) of the Italic Romans
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Keeping in mind of course the diff. between Ethnicity and Nationality;
The Romans extended the citizenship only gradually and very scarcly during the Republican times; In Republican times the Italic tribes were the first to collectively be granted the citizenship after/during the Social-war with the Lex Julia and Lex Plautia Papiria; Also Cisalpine Gaul received the Roman citizenship in 89BC with the Lex Pompeia (Cispadania) and in 49BC by Julius Caesar to all incl. Transpadania (Insubres/Cenomani); Exceptions were made before as in instances of where Socii were granted citizenship for distinguished bravery - like at the Battle of Vercellae 101BC were 1.000 allies from Camerinum (Picenti) were rewarded the citizenship by Gaius Marius for bravery (Plutarch Mar. XXVIII);
It wasnt until the Imperial times during the reign of Claudius (mid 1st c AD) that Auxiliary soldiers were granted the Roman citizenship upon discharge plus the conubium;
The Cambridge History of Greek and Roman Warfare: Vol.2 (2007)
Then, from the time of the emperor Claudius, who set thirty years as the maximum term of service, auxiliary soldiers of good character were automatically given citizenship after twenty-five years. In addition, they received the right of conubium, which legitimized any informal union with a woman (Augustus had forbidden soldiers to marry), so that any children born after the man had joined the army were Roman citizens also.
In 212Ad Caracalla granted citizenship to all (except slaves) in the Roman world with the Constitutio Antoniniana;
The Romans extended the citizenship only gradually and very scarcly during the Republican times; In Republican times the Italic tribes were the first to collectively be granted the citizenship after/during the Social-war with the Lex Julia and Lex Plautia Papiria; Also Cisalpine Gaul received the Roman citizenship in 89BC with the Lex Pompeia (Cispadania) and in 49BC by Julius Caesar to all incl. Transpadania (Insubres/Cenomani); Exceptions were made before as in instances of where Socii were granted citizenship for distinguished bravery - like at the Battle of Vercellae 101BC were 1.000 allies from Camerinum (Picenti) were rewarded the citizenship by Gaius Marius for bravery (Plutarch Mar. XXVIII);
It wasnt until the Imperial times during the reign of Claudius (mid 1st c AD) that Auxiliary soldiers were granted the Roman citizenship upon discharge plus the conubium;
The Cambridge History of Greek and Roman Warfare: Vol.2 (2007)
Then, from the time of the emperor Claudius, who set thirty years as the maximum term of service, auxiliary soldiers of good character were automatically given citizenship after twenty-five years. In addition, they received the right of conubium, which legitimized any informal union with a woman (Augustus had forbidden soldiers to marry), so that any children born after the man had joined the army were Roman citizens also.
In 212Ad Caracalla granted citizenship to all (except slaves) in the Roman world with the Constitutio Antoniniana;
Joined Mar 2012
1,510 Posts | 109+
Magdeburg
And what was the "ethnicity" of asia minor , may i ask?
Apparently you are thinking that anatolia is bordering Japan or something
Most Romans were Italians in my opinion by the time of Augustus as the Socii were granted citizenship. By the time of Caracalla it was "European"
Joined May 2009
710 Posts | 6+
New Jersey
Nowadays the entire region is mostly Caucasian, but back during the time of Ancient Rome it is possible that there were Mongoloid people in the area. IIRC Turkey gets its name from the Turkic people who were Mongoloids.
Joined Oct 2012
5,637 Posts | 418+
US
In ancient Roman frescoes the people depicted look much like modern Italians. What the peoples of ancient Italy looked like has never been a mystery.
As for Julius Caesar's ethnic background, as far as we know he was entirely of Latin descent. His family (the Julii) however were said to have originated in Alba Longa rather than Rome. Like Rome Alba Longa was also founded by Latins, but ancient Latium was divided into rival city-states much like ancient Greece. Alba Longa was an early rival of Rome, and was supposedly destroyed by the Romans in the 7th Century B.C. The defeated survivors of the sacking were forced to relocate to Rome, including Alba Longa's nobility who were then made patricians of their new city. Supposedly the Jullii were one of the old noble houses from Alba Longa that had been brought to Rome following that city's fall.
As for Julius Caesar's ethnic background, as far as we know he was entirely of Latin descent. His family (the Julii) however were said to have originated in Alba Longa rather than Rome. Like Rome Alba Longa was also founded by Latins, but ancient Latium was divided into rival city-states much like ancient Greece. Alba Longa was an early rival of Rome, and was supposedly destroyed by the Romans in the 7th Century B.C. The defeated survivors of the sacking were forced to relocate to Rome, including Alba Longa's nobility who were then made patricians of their new city. Supposedly the Jullii were one of the old noble houses from Alba Longa that had been brought to Rome following that city's fall.
Joined Feb 2014
379 Posts | 4+
Texas
Correct me if I'm wrong here Ben.. but could not also Britons or Gauls-Germans etc. not be made citizens or born of Roman citizens? Hence then becoming Roman. And then be as any other Roman citzen to include a native lets say of Arpinum (I remember that one because of Marius
).
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I think it is the other way around;
It is known (from Genetic studies) that the Neolithic folks of Europe were of one and the same stock i.e. no migration of ideas but a physical migration; This is known from examining three Neolithic corpses from three diff. European locations:
Stuttgart (LBK culture / S Germany) / Gök4 (TBK culture / Sweden) / Ötzi (Remedello / Alps);
And all three are genetically extremely close to each other (PCA cluster) and show strong affinities with modern-day South Europe especially Sardinia;
Since the Neolithic folks ultimately stem from the Near East/Anatolia there is no reason to believe Neolithic Anatolia was any diff. than Neolithic Europe; Anatolia was than followed by successive waves of Indo-Europeans (Hittites/Thracians/Greeks) plus the existing non-Indo-European Pelasgians/Trojans etc.; So i would seriously doubt that Anatolia in Roman times was any diff. than much of Mediterranean (Italy/Greece) Europe;
Joined Aug 2013
4,572 Posts | 30+
Canada, originally Clwyd, N.Wales
Correct me if I'm wrong here Ben.. but could not also Britons or Gauls-Germans etc. not be made citizens or born of Roman citizens? Hence then becoming Roman. And then be as any other Roman citzen to include a native lets say of Arpinum (I remember that one because of Marius
Definitely. Thats why I was cautious to say that *Roman* leaders were all racially Caucasian because I really didn't know if there were some important Roman leaders from North Africa or the East who were not caucasian. Likewise, ethnicity to me is different from race, and so when one became a Roman their ethnicity changed somewhat.
Joined Dec 2012
449 Posts | 0+
USA
I would actually say Anatolians (in the modern day) have many, many "Caucasians" among them. One of the most stunning "Aryan" ....., and steotypically at that, I have ever met was- surprise- Turkish!
Joined Dec 2012
449 Posts | 0+
USA
Not quite. There are many "Aryan" Caucasians in Turkey, but there are many "Mongoloids" as well. Thrre are also many "Middle Eastern" looking folk.
Generally speaking, as you move further south of the Mediterranean people become darker, and further East they become more Mongoloid, and I include here any derivation of the two (mixes in genetics and populations individually).
Joined Jan 2014
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Calgary
The Turks came to Anatolia and displaced the Roman (Byzantine) Empire. There were no Turks in Turkey under the Romans.
Joined Mar 2012
1,510 Posts | 109+
Magdeburg
Only some mercenaries. However anatolia has always been genetically dominated by native anatolians that was hellenized , romanized and turkified in order. Byzantines were same as the turks and greeks today ( except souteast ehere kurds and arabs live) . Italians(romans) , Greeks , Turks and Georgians (also Armenians to an extent) are identical
Thanks for the responses. I appreciate it.
Btw, is it an established fact that the majority of Germanic people are mostly, barbarians? I have several discussion with my friends regarding this. One of my friend said "if the majority of Germanic people are indeed barbarians during the time of Julius Caesar, so the English people nowadays which many people always said and believed to be descended from the Germanic people (I don't think this is 100% accurate) are actually barbarians that are conquered by Roman people, and the Germanic people aren't advanced as those Romans, bla, bla, bla...". What are your opinions about these?
I don't think English people are actually 100% or even 80%, 70% Anglo-Saxon (Germanic). IIRC English people are mixed race, please correct me if I'm wrong.
Btw, is it an established fact that the majority of Germanic people are mostly, barbarians? I have several discussion with my friends regarding this. One of my friend said "if the majority of Germanic people are indeed barbarians during the time of Julius Caesar, so the English people nowadays which many people always said and believed to be descended from the Germanic people (I don't think this is 100% accurate) are actually barbarians that are conquered by Roman people, and the Germanic people aren't advanced as those Romans, bla, bla, bla...". What are your opinions about these?
I don't think English people are actually 100% or even 80%, 70% Anglo-Saxon (Germanic). IIRC English people are mixed race, please correct me if I'm wrong.
Joined Nov 2010
14,406 Posts | 4,143+
Cornwall
I dont think I'm a barbarian.
You are thinking too deep my friend. Never mind England the ethnic blend of Spain is absolutely incredible. BUT - I dont know about you but I dont even know my ancestry before the middle 19th century. With so many mixtures of peoples over the years I am British, no more.
This is why the common man-in-the-street concept of 'Reconquista' in Spain is so simple-minded. When you talk about 800 years, the Spanish muslims were mostly just as 'Spanish' as the Spanish Christians - in many cases even more so due to the influx of immigrants needed to repopulate Spain over the lower middle ages.
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