16th Century Japanese Samurai Army against European Contemporaries

Naomasa298 said:

Yes it did. That states the Hussars were able to break infantry formations when they were already engaged and by charging into their flanks. That's a tactic for any heavy cavalry, not just the Hussars.

Now, I'm going to ask you again. Which battles did the Hussars break infantry formations, and under what circumstances? Give me details and sources. You made the statement that the Hussars were regularly able to break infantry pike formations, so now it's time for you to back that up with specifics and not just bland generalities. Show me when and where they were able to break a set, disciplined pike formation in a head on charge, and specifically in the period 1580-1700.

I don't know what other forums you're used to, but on Historum, when challenged on statements, the burden of proof lies with you, otherwise one might suspect you're simply trolling.

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Polish-Lithuanian hussars proved to be the decisive factor often against overwhelming odds. For instance, in the Battle of Kluszyn during the Polish-Muscovite War the Russians outnumbered the Commonwealth army 5 to 1, yet were heavily defeated. During the Khmelnytsky Uprising (Battle of Zhovti Vody, 1648), the Polish army of 1500 and containing less than 200 hussars defended against 11000 man strong army of Khmelnytsky due to heroic defence work of the hussars.

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tornada said:

How did the Hussars maintain a charge when their front lines crumpled. Disciplined constant fire would have devastated their charge since their lines would have been mangled. Horses fall, trip other horses, get in the way of more. Their riders fall, often causing their weapons to get in the way of riders alongside them. Heavy Cavalry charges aren't all that fast. If you manage to hit them with a constant barrage they'd crumple

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Certain sources indicate that frontal assaults by heavy cavalry were ineffective against formations of pikemen. Pikemen were a formidable but not impenetreable defense system against the cavalry. They stood in a line in very tight formations each soldier brandishing a pike, or long pole, the end of which was embedded into the ground, and tilted forward with the spike facing the oncoming attack. As forboding as it appeared, the pikemen were no match for a skilled hussar with a very long sharp lance.

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Needless to say, many a Polish Hussar fell under the barrage of firepower from the their opponnents, but those losses were relatively few compared to that of their opponents. The Polish warriors were consistently able to defeat armies considerably larger than their own. At the Battle of Kircholm, there were only 100 Poles killed and 200 wounded, while Swedish losses were 8,000 dead or wounded and 500 captured.

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The hussars normally advanced together in an open, loose formation, but during the charge, their positions would become much tighter, so that each hussar would be virtually knee-to-knee at full gallop. Not only did it minimize losses as a result of enemy fire power, but the intense power of this attack, by thousands of hussars, literally crushed the enemy. The agility and speed of the hussars was not diminished in any way by the armour which they wore. On the contrary, they were able to engage in a full charge from a virtual standstill with ease. Speed was of the essence and their ability to change speed and direction was only one of the factors that contributed to their amazing success. Unlike those of other cavalry, the Polish Hussars not only charged, but fought through the enemy, literally trampling over the infantry in the process.

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Among pistols, wheellocks, and arquibus, the opponent also used muskets against the cavalry, however there were numerous disadvantages resulting from use of the latter. Muskets were slow to reload, inaccurate at over 50m range, and often caused accidental ignition of gunpowder stores. According to Radoslaw Sikora, the firepower of enemy infantry was insufficient to hold off the charging hussars. The maximum range for muskets was 250 to 300 metres while the arquebus had a maximum range of 150m to 200m. Moreover, according to research conducted by *Scharnhorst, in the19th century, only 65 shots of every 1,000 managed to hit its target. *[Wg. Hansa Delbrucka. "Geschichte der Kriegkunst Rahmen der politischen Geschichte " Berlin 1920-1923 (op.cit. Page (s) 310 ) t.IV. ] From a distance of 225 meters the ratio was 149/1000 while at closer range of 75 meters, the ratio was 403 hits out of 1000. These statistics are not surprising since firearms were still in their developmental stages. The weather also had an impact on weapons reliability, since damp weather would virtually put an end to the use of gunpowder for the interim.

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Haakbus said:

The musket certainly had a longer maximum range than 300 m, and the arquebus more than 200 m. I do agree with the statements of the musket's inaccuracy, but against a mass of soldiers it's bound to hit something! It really sounds to me like you are trying to disprove volley fire, which doesn't seem to be the intent of the author.

Japanese arquebuses could definitely pierce plate armor at 50 m, but by 150 m, most plate armor could stand it. Presumably European arquebuses had similar performance. Also, during the Battle of Nagashino in 1575, Takeda Katsuyori thought that his enemy's arquebuses would be useless because of the very wet weather. That was far from the truth!

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Thegn Ansgar said:

Incorrect, during the time of the Polish Winged Hussar's glory days, all European pikes were under 5 metres in length.

Common cavalry repelling yari were almost always 6+ meters (just the haft, the blade could be an additional meter, and with the way yari were constructed, had a tang about half the length of the haft. That blade is not going to easily be broken).

The length of the kopia lance used by the hussars was about 5.5 meters in length. Then one has to take into account the way the spear was held. In the Japanese case, they're not holding it like in the picture you showed, which decreases the length of the pike. Japanese yari (especially the long yari) were not used in that manner. It was a spear wall that projected out fairly far. Cavalry is not going to get through that, especially with the weight of the charge being broken up by palisades designed to specifically do that, as well as combined with rotating volley fire from muskets.

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The length ranged from 4.5m to 6.2m, though there were shorter demi-lances at 3.5m. It had to be long enough to enable the Hussar to overreach the infantry pikes, which measured 4.5m to 5.5m in length

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Gorge123 said:

Any sources? Just because the Polish army Hussars was a great army does not mean its superman or invincible, or simply that the Japanese cannot defeat because they are just so great.

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Naomasa298 said:

I don't see anything in any of those links - which I admittedly haven't had time to thoroughly browse - that suggests that the Polish Hussars were able to break set formations of pikemen on a regular basis any more than any other heavy cavalry like you suggest. In almost all circumstances, they charged the flanks and formations of infantry that were already engaged, just like every other heavy cavalry unit.

So once again, where and when were they able to break set pike formations?

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