About the Soul...

wittgenstein · May 27, 2012

Nothing reoccurs because time is a dimension and does not “flow”. However, one can imagine the block universe (in the context of our perception of time) as reoccurring.
This next site is a little too “new age” for me, but it gives the basic idea.
Eternal Recurrence - An Expanded View of Nietzsche's Insight

Brisieis · May 27, 2012

Charlie Bravo said:
I couldn't say, although I suspect that most believe the former. I believe the soul can be annihilated, by the strictest interpretation of the word, which is essentially "To be made into nothing." I believe only God can do this to a soul, or one or more of His most powerful agents, but it can certainly happen. I definitely don't think it is something done lightly, however. It's possible that some theists find the idea of a Creator that also un-creates disagreeable. It's also possible that a lot of theists may believe God is capable of un-making a soul, but chooses to torment it forever, instead. That's not my God. hell has no place in my belief system.

I am in agreement with you on the hell thing, as you know.

It makes sense that a creator could annihilate a soul, as you put it, if something is so bad, why keep give it eternal life? Where I would differ with many, is what exactly is considered so bad? I would suggest, not half of what we think.

wittgenstein · May 27, 2012

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8G-eq7uGX4"]The Eternal Block Universe - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy9gXKwRpXc&feature=related"]The Fabric of the Cosmos: What Is Space? - YouTube[/ame]

dagul · May 27, 2012

Brisieis said:
Information in what way? I would say information is destructable.

How can an information be destroyed? There is no science that can show that it is indestructible. An information is a constant being and cannot be destroyed, like, this present idea that you and I aver, cannot be destroyed. The written words for sure is subject to destruction because of its material constitution, but the information is not.

Charlie Bravo · May 27, 2012

Brisieis said:
I am in agreement with you on the hell thing, as you know.

It makes sense that a creator could annihilate a soul, as you put it, if something is so bad, why keep give it eternal life? Where I would differ with many, is what exactly is considered so bad? I would suggest, not half of what we think.

I couldn't agree more, m'dear. I have often held that God is much more reasonable, compassionate, and, at the risk of being cheeky, humane, than His children.

Brisieis · May 27, 2012

dagul said:
How can an information be destroyed? There is no science that can show that it is indestructible. An information is a constant being and cannot be destroyed, like, this present idea that you and I aver, cannot be destroyed. The written words for sure is subject to destruction because of its material constitution, but the information is not.

Sure you can lose information. It entirely depends on what medium the information is in for a start, orally, written, carved... what type of information? It can be destroyed by obvious means or simply by time. Put it this way, in one million years, is it likely any information that we are surrounded by today, will exist?

If information was eternal, we would know every detail of every civilization that ever existed, but we don't. We only know what is left from carvings and written words that survived. And these can be destroyed.

dagul · May 27, 2012

I am not referring to the manner it is written but to the information itself. It might be lost because it was written in the paper that's destroyed, but the thought of the information is beyond destruction. This opposing idea that the two of us have right now, can be destroyed as written in the internet, but their being an information is beyond destruction.

dagul · May 27, 2012

Crystal Rainbow said:
This may sound unbelievable to some but I think after I die I move on. My physical body dies but my soul is alive and can still think and feel. Your bodies are just vehicles that just lets us get on with our mortal coil and purpose in life in the here and now.

Precisely, the soul is indestructible, and so it may go either in heaven or hell, and they're gonna be there for eternity.

wittgenstein · May 27, 2012

“Really? So if I set fire to a book it will not be destroyed? Fair enough to say that it changes, it alters, it becomes smoke and ashes, then the ashes become part of the soil of the earth etc etc.... but the book is still destroyed - there is no book anymore.”
Brisieis
Your question implies that time is not a dimension. Time is similar to height, depth or width. Your question is like asking, “ I know that this rock has borders. Are you saying that it has no limits? That it exists 5 miles from here?”
Of course I am not saying that. Similarly, if a book is on fire, I am not saying that it will continue forever on the time axis (like the height, depth or width axis). It existed at the point in time X and at the point in space X, but does not exist at a time point years from now. Just as one would say that that rock does not exist at all points in space.

dagul · May 27, 2012

Brisieis said:
I am in agreement with you on the hell thing, as you know.

It makes sense that a creator could annihilate a soul, as you put it, if something is so bad, why keep give it eternal life? Where I would differ with many, is what exactly is considered so bad? I would suggest, not half of what we think.

On the basis of faith, the Bible says, that the soul shall not be destroyed but shall suffer till eternity in hell, or shall be in eternal glory in heaven. Nothing is said about destruction.

Crystal Rainbow · May 27, 2012

Charlie Bravo said:
I believe essentially the exact same thing, Crystal.

Thank you it just makes common sense, I have had so many experiences such as near death and feelings of being here before in different places that I have never been to before in this life time.

To suggest that there is no such thing after death prove that to me please

dagul · May 27, 2012

wittgenstein said:
“Really? So if I set fire to a book it will not be destroyed? Fair enough to say that it changes, it alters, it becomes smoke and ashes, then the ashes become part of the soil of the earth etc etc.... but the book is still destroyed - there is no book anymore.”
Brisieis
Your question implies that time is not a dimension. Time is similar to height, depth or width. Your question is like asking, “ I know that this rock has borders. Are you saying that it has no limits? That it exists 5 miles from here?”
Of course I am not saying that. Similarly, if a book is on fire, I am not saying that it will continue forever on the time axis (like the height, depth or width axis). It existed at the point in time X and at the point in space X, but does not exist at a time point years from now. Just as one would say that that rock does not exist at all points in space.

The book has the information but it is not the information.

You are correct by the way, that when it was burned, it altered its substance and becomes a smoke, and that smoke is part of the universe, so, where did the book goes now?

Brisieis · May 27, 2012

dagul said:
I am not referring to the manner it is written but to the information itself. It might be lost because it was written in the paper that's destroyed, but the thought of the information is beyond destruction. This opposing idea that the two of us have right now, can be destroyed as written in the internet, but their being an information is beyond destruction.

I disagree, only very specific ideas last the ages, and even those ideas can disappear. Nothing lasts forever.

dagul said:
On the basis of faith, the Bible says, that the soul shall not be destroyed but shall suffer till eternity in hell, or shall be in eternal glory in heaven. Nothing is said about destruction.

The bible says, yet not all of us believe such things. The Koran has it's own version of what happens to non-muslims too. Which is true - what if you picked the wrong book to believe?

Crystal Rainbow said:
Thank you it just makes common sense, I have had so many experiences such as near death and feelings of being here before in different places that I have never been to before in this life time. To suggest that there is no such thing after death prove that to me please

I have had about three what seemed like OBE's, but I write them off as dreams.

dagul said:
The book has the information but it is not the information.

You are correct by the way, that when it was burn, it altered its substance and becomes a smoke, and that smoke is part of the universe, so, where did the book goes now?

So is the information within the book, in the smoke? And does the smoke not dissolve into the atmosphere, or does it float off into outer space in a puff?

If a book is set alight and burnt, the words are destroyed, fact.

bunyip · May 27, 2012

To suggest that there is no such thing after death prove that to me please

The person who says'"I don't believe X is the case" is making no claims,so needs prove nothing.

The person who makes the claim "'X is the case/I believe X is the case" has the burden of proof ( perhaps look it up)

I assert I do not believe in gods,an afterlife and a great many other things due to the lack of credibility. I may be wrong and will gladly change my mind as soon as I see some proof. As nobody has so far managed to prove the existence of gods,the soul and an afterlife,in recorded history, I'm not holding my breath.

Charlie Bravo · May 27, 2012

dagul said:
On the basis of faith, the Bible says, that the soul shall not be destroyed but shall suffer till eternity in hell, or shall be in eternal glory in heaven. Nothing is said about destruction.

We (me and Bri) don't all believe what the Bible says about all of that. I know I do not. The idea of a loving Creator crafting a realm of eternal torment like Hell for His wayward creations is barbaric and repugnant to me as well as entirely inconsistent with my idea of what the character of a Divine Father is.

Charlie Bravo · May 27, 2012

bunyip said:
The person who says'"I don't believe X is the case" is making no claims,so needs prove nothing.

The person who makes the claim "'X is the case/I believe X is the case" has the burden of proof ( perhaps look it up)

You were looking good until you got to the bolded. One is quite capable of believing without having to dis-allow the possibility that their belief might be incorrect.

wittgenstein · May 27, 2012

Imagine a grid Google Image Result for http://cr4.globalspec.com/PostImages/201202/general_relativity_curved_space_time_abs_6DB4429B-FC84-454B-BB2E0F51AB3823B3.jpg
Suppose time (in the above grid) goes left to right. Lets say the fifth vertical line to the right (going up and down) is 10 PM, 2 lines (to the right) is 12 PM. The clock on the left is gone at 12 PM. The clock to the right is not the same clock.
The horizontal lines represent space. The vertical lines represent time.

dagul · May 27, 2012

Brisieis said:
I disagree, only very specific ideas last the ages, and even those ideas can disappear. Nothing lasts forever.

The ideas really change and varies, but the existence of the information of such idea cannot be destroyed. Like this information that I am making right now is beyond destruction, in the same vein that the information that you are averring is beyond destruction.

The bible says, yet not all of us believe such things. The Koran has it's own version of what happens to non-muslims too. Which is true - what if you picked the wrong book to believe?

Don't want to argue with their material particulars since, I as Catholic respects the faith of others, but the existence of information is beyond destruction.

So is the information within the book, in the smoke? And does the smoke not dissolve into the atmosphere, or does it float off into outer space in a puff?

Nah, because an information cannot be destroyed, like when I write these things and someone erases it, its material constitution shall be destroyed, but the information itself won't be destroyed.

If a book is set alight and burnt, the words are destroyed, fact.

Sure, because it is material thing, and information is not material so it cannot be destroyed. Like my soul which is not material thus cannot be subject to destruction.

wittgenstein · May 27, 2012

“You are correct by the way, that when it was burned, it altered its substance and becomes a smoke, and that smoke is part of the universe, so, where did the book goes now?”
dagul
The book (as a book and not smoke etc) is a book at a point in space-time. That does not mean that it is a book at all other points on the time axis. Similarly, ( since time is a dimension just like height, depth or width) one does not say that a rock ( because it exists at a particular place in space ) exists at all points in space.

dagul · May 27, 2012

Charlie Bravo said:
We don't all believe what the Bible says about all of that. I know I do not. The idea of a loving Creator crafting a realm of eternal torment like Hell for His wayward creations is barbaric and repugnant to me as well as entirely inconsistent with my idea of what the character of a Divine Father is.

That's what you said, and that is you indestructible information.

.... my faith says otherwise, but I am not arguing with you on that aspect. I respect your stand over that.

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