Airborne Injury Rate At Dien Bien Phu and Bernard Fall's Belief Very Little Difference Between Trained and Untrained Soldiers at Jumping

Joined Apr 2022
30 Posts | 10+
VA
In the book Hell In A Very Small Place, Bernard Fall notes that during the last days of the battle of Dien Bien Phu a bunch of French soldier with no prior training in parajumping volunteered to enter the now hopeless battle as reinforcemments.

Fall notes that despite no prior experience with parachute, these last batch of reinforcements had an injury rate of no worse than the prior couple of waves of division of actual paratroopers sent to reinforced the French garrison at the location. Fall concludes that there s no need to give specialized parachute training to soldiers to prevent high injury rates and that its an indication perhaps military should start allowing soldiers who never did any prior training at parachuting to enter the battlefield freely should they volunteer to do so.

I am wondering how much these claims can be trusted? It was written by a journalist who served as a partisan in World War 2 and later became a journalists on the Vietnam Wars, going on the batlefield with troops during the French occupation and later joining American troops in patrols in the jungles in the later USA war. In fact he was killed during an ambush on America soldiers by the Viet Cong around a year after he wrote Hell In A Very Small Place.

Whats your opinion?
 
Joined May 2017
2,307 Posts | 312+
France
It is true.My oncle the medecine general Pierre Du Puy ("the price of the war" with oberst Hans Killian,Laffont editions 1965:Killian was one of the best doctors of the wehrmacht,his wife doctor of Eva Braun,his father Gustav doctor of Wilhelm II Hohenzollern) was affected in Da Nang (Tourane) at the moment of the catastrof.All the members of the hospital-who had never "jumped"-received the orders to go with their equipments of the ACM,"antennes chirurgicales mobiles".They were informed of the capitulation when they had finished to prepar the ACM in the Dakotas.
I have asked the question to our cousin the para Deodat Dupuy Montbrun ("Commandos in Indochina","the honour of the war","over the death" publicated 1964-2005) formed in the SAS of Ringway,and he answered me that it was the ultimate solution.The number of wounded was little.
 
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Joined Jan 2021
4,992 Posts | 3,605+
Conch Republic. "WE Seceded where others failed"
Early '80s, young and stupid, (I'm not so young anymore), I volunteered to jump out of a perfectly good airplane over the hinterlands of Maine for US Navy SERE (Survival-Evasion-Restance-Escape) training.

I'm older, if not wiser. I'm not ever going to do THAT ever again.

THEIR goal was to learn how to "live off the land" eating bugs and stuff. MY personal goal was trying to get a bystander coming down the road to take me to the local McDonalds. (We can quibble over whether thats any better than "bugs and stuff' )

Got reprimanded by Sgt Mjr Toi Fontaine (48th Highlanders, Canada) on a joint exercise: "You're just not INTO this, are you".

Truth be told, NO I wasn't.
 
Joined Oct 2013
24,148 Posts | 6,119+
Europix
As @Silesius Smithee pointed it, paratroopers weren't that much about the jump itself but the other training stuff.

As for the jump itself, yes, it's not big deal. It's just the guts to get out of the plane. The landing normally isn't problematic for a fit person (and all militaries are fit). But that applies if You don't have what's called "incidents" during the jump. It happens very rarely, but un untrained or even a rookie para, unlike a seasoned para will probably not solve it and die.

________
@Silesius Smithee what was really pissing was when after the exercises everyone went back to barracks in trucks. Except us.
 
Joined Dec 2021
8,823 Posts | 4,298+
Australia
Got reprimanded by Sgt Mjr Toi Fontaine (48th Highlanders, Canada) on a joint exercise: "You're just not INTO this, are you".

Few sane people are. How can I put this? Compared with civilian life, the army seemed to me to have a far greater number of nuts to the acre. The very worst were the gung ho officers. They got people killed, unless somebody fragged their arse first.( apparently rare in the Australian army)

I did a jungle survival course which was pretty disgusting. Except for finding wild sugar cane and learning how to extract water from some plants.

Oh, the idea that "all militaries are fit" is a popular fiction. True enough for elites such as Special Forces, US Rangers etc, but not for the common grunt. The fittest such people ever get is usually during basic. After that, standards tend to slip a bit . It's all relative; compared with most civilians, many serving military are quite fit. Probably not fit enough to go around jumping out of airplanes.

Once knew a [civilian] bloke who had done 150 jumps. His vivid descriptions of the level or pure terror put me off. The most daring things I've ever done to do with aircraft were a few trips in a Huey , and I once went up in a glider.--------Apart from that, I was once allowed to sit on the flight deck of a passenger jet as it landed. (my sis was cabin crew) THAT was thrilling, but not scary.
 
Joined Jan 2017
11,739 Posts | 5,015+
Sydney

PRIVATE James Marshall Hendrix made his 25th parachute jump as a member of the US Army’s 101st Airborne division in early 1962.​



Jimi Hendrix changed the face of rock music with his unique and exciting guitar playing



In those days parachutes were not the high-tech canopies they are today and injuries were common.
On this occasion Hendrix broke his ankle so badly on landing that he was subsequently given an honourable discharge.
The 101st Airborne’s loss turned out to be the rock world’s gain.
 
Joined Dec 2021
8,823 Posts | 4,298+
Australia
He was arrested for stealing cars and given a choice: Army or jail.
So effectively drafted. How long was he meant to serve?

I suspect his chances of being killed in Vietnam may have been high. The deck seems to have been stacked against poor black kids throughout the Vietnam War era. However, I think that view may depend on whom one reads.
 
Joined Mar 2014
11,729 Posts | 3,505+
Beneath a cold sun, a grey sun, a Heretic sun...
So effectively drafted. How long was he meant to serve?

I suspect his chances of being killed in Vietnam may have been high. The deck was stacked against poor black kids throughout the Vietnam War era.
No, it's not effectively drafted. He had another option. I suspect his chances of being killed in Vietnam would be astronomically low. it was 1962. The only Americans in Vietnam were a few advisors. Not the sort of job they give to jail-dredge PFCs.
 
Joined Dec 2021
8,823 Posts | 4,298+
Australia
No, it's not effectively drafted. He had another option
Going to prison or going into the army is "Hobson's Choice". Having spent 2 years as a conscript***, in my opinion 'prison 'or 'army' are not equitable choices.

Didn't know exactly when Jimi was in the army, that's why I qualified my post with "during the Vietnam era"

"A Hobson's choice is a free choice in which only one thing is actually offered. The term is often used to describe an illusion that multiple choices are available. The most well known Hobson's choice is "I'll give you a choice: take it or leave it", wherein "leaving it" is strongly undesirable."


***once training is finished, army life is much like having an ordinary job (assuming there's no war) I was in fact much better off than had I stayed in Australia in the public service: Overseas posting for 14 months. (not a war zone, no shooting) That meant being taxed at 50%, plus a generous zone allowance. Full board and lodgings (although that later changed) free medical and dental , free uniforms and equipment. I saved enough to buy a decent car after I got home. Under the law at that time, the consequences of refusing to be drafted were dire: Loss of public service job, and never being again able to work for any arm of government, plus 2 years in prison. That meant a criminal record which followed you for life. Like I said, Hobson's Choice.
 
Joined Mar 2014
11,729 Posts | 3,505+
Beneath a cold sun, a grey sun, a Heretic sun...
Going to prison or going into the army is "Hobson's Choice". Having spent 2 years as a conscript***, in my opinion 'prison 'or 'army' are not equitable choices.

Didn't know exactly when Jimi was in the army, that's why I qualified my post with "during the Vietnam era"

"A Hobson's choice is a free choice in which only one thing is actually offered. The term is often used to describe an illusion that multiple choices are available. The most well known Hobson's choice is "I'll give you a choice: take it or leave it", wherein "leaving it" is strongly undesirable."


***once training is finished, army life is much like having an ordinary job (assuming there's no war) I was in fact much better off than had I stayed in Australia in the public service: Overseas posting for 14 months. (not a war zone, no shooting) That meant being taxed at 50%, plus a generous zone allowance. Full board and lodgings (although that later changed) free medical and dental , free uniforms and equipment. I saved enough to buy a decent car after I got home. Under the law at that time, the consequences of refusing to be drafted were dire: Loss of public service job, and never being again able to work for any arm of government, plus 2 years in prison. That meant a criminal record which followed you for life. Like I said, Hobson's Choice.
I'd have taken whichever was the shorter term. They're both going to suck.
 
Joined Jan 2017
11,739 Posts | 5,015+
Sydney
Jimi was an appalling soldier , much disliked by his officers for his lackaday attitude ,
sleeping on sentry duty , playing guitar at all time of night much to the annoyance of his sleep deprived fellow soldier
From military.com
"Although Hendrix had signed up for three years of service, Captain Gilbert Batchman had had enough after one year,
and made the case for Hendrix to be discharged, as his problems were judged to not be treatable by "hospitalization or counseling."
An alleged ankle injury during a parachute jump gave Young Hendrix the opportunity to bow out of active duty with an honorable discharge, and he was happy to oblige.
It can be said that at least he had the benefit of dental care while in service at Fort Cambell and California's Fort Ord -- care that would come in useful later in his musical career "
 
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Joined Dec 2021
8,823 Posts | 4,298+
Australia
I'd have taken whichever was the shorter term. They're both going to suck.

Being drafted was for 2 years Or 2 years in prison.

Although I hated basic, which was the first 10 weeks, infantry corps training was nowhere near as bad. I never did get to like the army much. However, my time overseas was mostly great, except for time spent 'on excercise' in the Malay jungle. Usually a week which wasn't too bad, but once it was for a month. Hated that.

Overall it's largely about attitude. Training does indeed suck. That's intentional; they are teaching you army discipline. IE to obey orders without question. If a person has an anti authority chip on their shoulder, they will be most unhappy. We had a couple in my platoon. You're learning to work as part of a group. Such people make it hard for everyone else.

I'm glad for your sake that you haven't had to endure military service.
 
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