Alexander the Great vs Nanda Dynasty

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Some comments

I think that I should add that we know virtually nothing about the military capabilities in the ancient Indian kingdoms.

We know only that Alexander fought that battle and won, though details are hard to come by (literary evidence tells us that Alexander's army had 30 to 60 times the casualty infliction capability, but those numbers are hardly reliable). We know that there was Greek expansion into the Indian subcontinent well after Alexander in the Indo Greek kingdom and etc. But we know virtually nothing about the actual military systems of these kingdoms.

We know, however, that the Macedonian army at the time was the most effective documented military force in existence until that point and that it had defeated EASILY all enemies it fought. By the time in the OP Macedonia had conquered most of the world know to the Hellenes:

East-Hem_323bc.jpg


Also note that there was significant Indian territories between the Nanda and the Macedonian Empire in 323 BC according to this map.

Some brief description of the Macedonian army:

Caracalla said:
MACEDONIAN MILITARY SYSTEM, 350 – 320 BC

Philip, as soon as he came to power, completely reorganised the Macedonian army. The result was the finest fighting force the world had yet seen; a national army, combining the disciplined skill of Greek mercenaries with the patriotic devotion of Greek citizen soldiers. For the first time in history, scientific design – based on exhaustive analysis of the capabilities and limitations of the men, weapons, and equipment of the time – evolved into a clear concept of the coordinated tactical action of the combined arms. Careful organisation and training programs welded the mass into a military machine, which under the personal command of Philip (or later Alexander) probably could have been successful against any army raised during the next 18 centuries – in other words, until gunpowder weapons became predominant.

The backbone of the army was its infantry. The Macedonian phalanx was based on the Greek model, but 16 men deep, instead of 8 to 12, and with a small interval between men, instead of the shoulder-to-shoulder mass of the Greek phalanx. There were two types of hoplites: pezetaeri and hypaspists. The more numerous pezetaeri carried sarissas, or spears more then 13 feet long.* (For training purposes, a heavier, longer, sarissa was used.) In addition, each man carried, slung over his shoulder, a shield large enough to cover his body when kneeling, with a short sword worn on a belt, plus helmet, ......plate, and greaves. The sarissa was held 3 to 6 feet from its butt, so that the points of the first 4 or 5 ranks protruded in front of the phalanx line in battle. Despite the heavier armament, constant training made pezetaeri units more manoeuvrable than the normal Greek phalanx. They were capable of performing a variety of movements and manoeuvres in perfect formation.

More adaptable to any form of combat, however, was the hypaspist, cream of the Macedonian infantry. He was distinguished from the pezetaeri only by his shorter pike, probably 8 to 10 feet in length, and possibly by slightly lighter armour. Formations and evolutions of the hypaspist phalangial units were identical to those of the pezetaeri. The hypaspists were, if possible, better trained, more highly motivated, faster, and more agile. Since Alexander usually used an oblique order of battle, echeloned back from the right-flank cavalry spearhead, the hypaspists were usually on the right flank of the phalanx, to provide a flexible hinge between the fast-moving cavalry and the relatively slow pezetaeri.

Although Philip designed this heavy infantry formation as a base of manoeuvre for the shock action of his cavalry, the phalanx was a highly mobile base, which, completing a perfectly aligned charge at a dead run, would add its powerful impact upon an enemy not yet recovered from a cavalry blow. To exploit these tactics, Philip and Alexander tried to choose flat battlefields; but the concept was applicable, and was applied, on rough terrain.

To protect the flanks and rear of the phalanx, and to maintain contact with the cavalry on the battlefield, the Macedonian army of Philip and Alexander included light infantry. Generally referred to as peltasts, a term borrowed from contemporary Greek usage, these troops were unarmoured or lightly armoured, and equipped with bows and arrows, slings, or javelins. The peltasts would also cover the advance of the phalanx, and retire to the flanks or rear before the moment of impact. Additionally, armed servants and camp followers, called psiloi, usually guarded the camp and baggage trains. Sometimes they also served as foragers and scouts.

The organisation of the hoplites, or pezetaeri, under Philip (apparently retained by Alexander, and probably by the Successors too) was based on the file (dekas) of 16 men. Four files composed a tetrarchy of 64 men, and 4 tetrarchies comprised a syntagma or speira of 256 men. The largest standard unit, the taxis of about 1,500 men, was a territorially based unit containing 6 syntagmata. There were apparently 12 taxeis. When he invaded Asia, Alexander probably took 8 taxeis with him and left the other 4 behind in Macedon. The taxeis apparently did not long survive Alexander's death, and the armies of the Successors apparently contained chiliarchies ( a Greek term approximating the modern “regiment”) of 4 syntagmata, totalling about 1,000 men in place of the earlier taxis.

Like the modern division, the simple phalanx was a self-contained fighting unit of combined arms; in addition to the heavy infantry, it included (at theorectical full strength) 2,048 peltasts, 1,024 psiloi, and a cavalry regiment (epihipparchy) of 1,024, for a total of 8,192 men. The grand phalanx, composed of four simple pahalanxes, could be likened to a small modern field army, and had a strength of about 32,000 men.

Cavalry was a decisive arm of the Macedonian army, as well trained and as well equipped as the infantry. The elite were the Macedonian aristocrats of the Companion cavalry, so called because Philip, and later Alexander, habitually led them personally in battle. Hardly less skilled, and also relying upon shock action, were the mercenary Thessalian horsemen. The Companions usually were on the right of the infantry phalanx, the Thessalians on the left. The principal weapon of these heavy cavalrymen was a pike about 10 feet long, light enough to be thrown, heavy enough to be used as a lance to unhorse an opposing cavalryman or to skewer an infantry foe. They were equally adept at using the short swords carried at their belts. They wore a scale-armour ......plate, plus shield, helmet, and greaves. Their horses also ahd scale-armour headpieces and ......plates.

There were other, intermediate, cavalry formations; some organised as lancers, others – prototypes of dragoons – capable of fighting on horse or on foot; both varieties carried lighter weapons and armour. Finally, there were the light cavalrymen, mounted equivalents of the psiloi, who carried a variety of weapons: javelins, lances, bows. These light horsemen rarely wore armour, save for a helmet. Their functions were screening, reconnaissance, and flank protection.

The stirrup had not yet been invented; the horseman was seated on a pad, or saddle blanket of some sort (though the light cavalrymen sometimes rode bareback), with bridle and headstall comparable to those of out times. To become effective in combat, long training and practice were essential for both men and beasts.

The Macedonian army was the first to use prototypes of field artillery. Philip devised lightweight catapults and ballistae to accompany his siege-train; it is not clear whether he actually used them in field operations. Alexander, however, habitually used these weapons in battle, particularly in mountain and river-crossing operations. Philip designed these engines so that the essential parts could be carried on a mule or pack horse; the bulky wooden elements would be hewn on the spot from tree trunks. This, of course, would delay their employment in field operations, so Alexander carried a number of the assembled weapons in wagons.

As noted earlier, Philip, Alexander, and their engineers introduced several innovations in siege warfare, and were far more successful in their sieges than their Greek predecessors. The highly organised Macedonian corps of engineers was responsible not only for the siege train but also for a bridge train for river crossing. As in the case of the artillery, the essential manufactured components of the specialised equipment were packed on animals or in wagons; these were then assembled with lumber hewn on the spot.

The details of the Macedonian staff system are not clear, though obviously well developed. Command was exercised by voice, by trumpet, and by spear movements. Long-range communication was accomplished by smoke signals in the daytime, by fire beacons at night. For battlefield messages Alexander used his seven camp assistants, or one of a more numerous corps of youthful pages. This latter corps was an officer-training unit, with programs of instructions and development comparable to those of modern military academies.

The most thorough administrative and logistical organisation yet seen was developed by Philip of Macedon. Surgeons were attached to the Macedonian army, and there is even some evidence of something like a medical field hospital service. There was also an efficient engineer corps, whose major function was to perform the technical tasks of siege operations and river crossings.

This was the compact, competent, smoothly organised, scientific instrument which Philip bequeathed to his son, Alexander the Great.

*Some authorities assert that the war sarissa was 21 feet long, the training sarissa 24 feet long. This is not totally unreasonable (as other authorities insist) since medieval Swiss pikemen wielded spears of comparable length.

Of course, we don't any remotely the same degree of information regarding any ancient Indian army. Though, in all probably, considering all other pre-modern armies, they were not comparable to the army of Alexander: what pre-modern army would? In Western history up to 1500 AD the only army that could compare with Alexander's army in terms of effectiveness was the Roman. Only in the Early Modern Period that armies became as organized and effective as they were under Macedon and Rome.

Also, Alexander conquered a quite large part of India. He conquered the areas corresponding to Pakistan, that's 800,000 square kilometers, the rest of India is 4 times larger, therefore, in terms of area Alexander had already conquered 20% of India, with a population of perhaps 6-9 million. The area of the Nanda Empire was not much larger, perhaps about 1 - 1.5 million square kilometers, according to the map. This territory probably had about 10-15 million people, a large number of people but nothing impossibly large.

And also, Alexander didn't stop conquering Indian territory after the mutiny, however he changed the direction of conquest from eastward to the south.
 
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Furthermore, one must realize that the Perian army was multi national while the Indian one would have been largely homogenous. A multi national army is bound to be more fragile than a homogenous army since the morale of the auxiliars are definitely lower than the national army itself and their loyalty in doubt.

There wasn't any "indian army" in 323 BC, there existed dozens of kingdoms in India.

The conquest of the whole of India would be basically a series of wars trying to unify it.
 
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We know, however, that the Macedonian army at the time was the most effective documented military force in existence until that point and that it had defeated EASILY all enemies it fought. By the time in the OP Macedonia had conquered most of the world know to the Hellenes:
It is more appropriate to say that it is the most effective documented military force in the west as armies in East Asia at this time were relatively well documented, and military historians like Ralph Sawyer consider Chinese warfare to be much more asymetrical and complex than western ones, but one can start another thread on that if they like. This is about Macedonia vs India.


Of course, we don't any remotely the same degree of information regarding any ancient Indian army. Though, in all probably, considering all other pre-modern armies, they were not comparable to the army of Alexander: what pre-modern army would? In Western history up to 1500 AD the only army that could compare with Alexander's army in terms of effectiveness was the Roman. Only in the Early Modern Period that armies became as organized and effective as they were under Macedon and Rome.

This is a big assumption, especially when taking into consideration that the Mauryan got the better of the Seleucid. The warfare you are talking about is stricly restricted to the west, not to India, Central Asia, or China. One must not forget that the Sacae did manage to rout one of Alexander´s armies and we have no reason to assume they were superior in numbers. The Sacae were less disciplined and organized than the armies of Xiongnu whose tactics, decimal organization, and size of force makes them analagous to the Mongols of the ancient period. This can be partially seen when the Yue Zhi nomads, who were defeated by the Xiongnu conquered the Sacae and put them under its rule. In the late 1st century BC, the Han general Chentang also stated that one Han soldier was the equivalent of 5 western nomads(referring to the Wusun, Sacae, and Yuezhi) in strength due to better weaponry.
Even in the West, the Byzantine army was probably the most effective overall prior to the modern period and in the 15th century, the Swiss pike phalanx was in everyway more complex than the old Macedonian phalanx. In fact, there are good reasons to suppose even late medieval armies could beat ancient armies as they had the stirrup, powerbows, more powerful siege, and heavier armament.


Also, Alexander conquered a quite large part of India. He conquered the areas corresponding to Pakistan, that's 800,000 square kilometers, the rest of India is 4 times larger, therefore, in terms of area Alexander had already conquered 20% of India, with a population of perhaps 6-9 million. The area of the Nanda Empire was not much larger, perhaps about 1 - 1.5 million square kilometers, according to the map. This territory probably had about 10-15 million people, a large number of people but nothing impossibly large.

India at this time did not include all of Pakistan, only the territory on the bank of the Indus. So Alexander really only conquered a few city states, much like the Persian conquest of Greek Ionia, an incomplete and partial conquest, that didn´t prevent the mainland Greeks from overruning them, in similar but not as complete ways that the Mauryans overwhelmed Seleucid frontiers.
As for the figures you gave, I´m afraid it is again a total assumption. One must not forget that Pakistan in modern times have less than one sixth the population of India and in the 19th century, it had less than one tenth. In ancient times, it might have been somewhat higher, but it is doubtful that is higher than the modern ratio between the two countries, as Pakistan´s population saw great expansion into previously sparsely inhabited regions and grew much faster than those of India in the 20th century. There is every reason to assume that the Nanda had several times the amount of people than the region of Sind from Greek records itself.

There wasn't any "indian army" in 323 BC, there existed dozens of kingdoms in India.

There might not be a national army, but there was certainly a concept of India, as much as there was a concept of Greeks. It was far more homogenous than the Persian Empire.
 
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One must not forget that the Scythians did manage to rout one of Alexander´s armies and we have no reason to assume they were superior in numbers.
Yes,we do have very good reasons,since the defeated "army" was smaller than 2.000 men (stated casualty figure is 1.700).


So Alexander really only conquered a few city states, much like the Persian conquest of Greek Ionia, an incomplete and partial conquest, that didn´t prevent the mainland Greeks from overruning them,
If by "few" you mean "a hundred or so",I agree.Ionia only had a dozen cities,and was AT LEAST 5 times (though I think its closer to 10 times)smaller,in both population and size,than the Punjab and Indus Delta.Only Porus' enlarged territory had 50 or so cities.
Alcibiades
 
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Yes,we do have very good reasons,since the defeated "army" was smaller than 2.000 men (stated casualty figure is 1.700).



If by "few" you mean "a hundred or so",I agree.Ionia only had a dozen cities,and was AT LEAST 5 times (though I think its closer to 10 times)smaller,in both population and size,than the Punjab and Indus Delta.Only Porus' enlarged territory had 50 or so cities.
Alcibiades

The stated casualty was 2,000 infantries and 300 cavalry. Spitamedes was originally just a tribal chieftain of Sogdiana, nomadic armies that reach the strength of 10,000 was already considered powerful. Even in 36 BC, the King of Kangju, who ruled all of Sogdiana only mobilized 20,000 cavalry to support the Xiongnu Chanyu Zhizhi. Furthermore, one must not forget that the Sacaes eventually overwhelmed the Greco Bactrian kingdoms in the late 1st century BC and overwhelmed large parts of the Parthian eastern frontier, killing two successive Parthian kings, until Mithridates put a stop to it.

The Punjab might have had more cities than Ionia, put relative to the rest of India, its population was much less significant than Ionia is to the Greek population.
 
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There wasn't any "indian army" in 323 BC, there existed dozens of kingdoms in India.

The conquest of the whole of India would be basically a series of wars trying to unify it.

Which Chandragupta did just 4 years after the Battle of Hydaspes.

BTW, the Nanda empire was almost collapsing, with the Mauryan empire being established just 4 years later. So why not Alexander vs Chandragupta?

Also, here is the map of the Macedonian Empire-

MacedonianEmpire-336-323BC.Gif


Here's a map of India-

Map3_small.jpg


So you see? He conquered just a fraction of India on its frontiers...

Then the map looked like this after 3 years -

800px-Asia_323bc.jpg


Then Chandragupta takes over the Magadha empire(by overthrowing the Nanda dynasty) and expands into Punjab by defeating the Macedonian satraps. The map after 6 years from the Battle of Hydaspes -

Chandragupta_Empire_320_BC.gif


By 305 BC(almost 20 years after the Battle of Hydaspes), Chandragupta again expands into the vast territories of the Seleucid empire(formerly the eastern parts of the Macedonian empire) -

Chandragupta_mauryan_empire_305_BC.gif


Then he rapidly expands into the rest of India (except the Tamil states and of course, the kingdom of Kalinga). The map after 25 years from the Battle of Hydaspes -

Chandragupta_Maurya_Empire.gif


Thus Chandragupta becomes the first ever Indian to conquer all of India(or all of the known world to Indians).....I may as well add he was the Alexander of India.

Also, Chandragupta did all this at a very young age. He conquered the Nandas at 20, defeated the Macedonian satraps at 25, and defeats the Seleucids and conquers almost the whole of India by 40. He was also tutored by an awesome mentor, Chanakya. Commanded one of the largest armies the Indians had every seen. Resembles Alexander very much. :zany:
 
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If by "few" you mean "a hundred or so",I agree.Ionia only had a dozen cities,and was AT LEAST 5 times (though I think its closer to 10 times)smaller,in both population and size,than the Punjab and Indus Delta.Only Porus' enlarged territory had 50 or so cities.
Alcibiades

Hundred cities?!:zany: Wth? Porus had 50 cities under him? Dude? Even today there are not that much cities in that region:confused:
 
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The stated casualty was 2,000 infantries and 300 cavalry. Spitamedes was originally just a tribal chieftain of Sogdiana, nomadic armies that reach the strength of 10,000 was already considered powerful. Even in 36 BC, the King of Kangju, who ruled all of Sogdiana only mobilized 20,000 cavalry to support the Xiongnu Chanyu Zhizhi. Furthermore, one must not forget that the Sacaes eventually overwhelmed the Greco Bactrian kingdoms in the late 1st century BC and overwhelmed large parts of the Parthian eastern frontier, killing two successive Parthian kings, until Mithridates put a stop to it.

The Punjab might have had more cities than Ionia, put relative to the rest of India, its population was much less significant than Ionia is to the Greek population.
And so you are bringing the fact that 2.000 troops were defeated in an ambush by the extremelly mobile nomadic horse-archers (most mobile troops on the planet at that time) to bring into question whether Macedonian army was inferior than Scythians?Are you friggin serious?!!The fact that you are calling that force an "army" at all is ridicolous in itself,but this!!

Any and all doubts as too which army was better,Macedonian or Scythian horse-archers (or any other nomadic army in the world),was unambiguously shattered and answered with the Battle of Jaxartes River,where Scythians had every possible advantage and higher hand,and Alexander had a rebellion behind his rear in addition to having to defeat Scythians,AND STILL came out defeated.Of course,in THIS battle,commander was Alexander,in contrast to the previous defeat.

As to your second point,no,Ionian population was not much more significant in relation to the rest of the Greek world,than Punjab population was to the rest of India.

People are deceived by the fact that Ionia had ridicolously out of proportion impact on the Meditteranean (and hence the world) history,and so think they were this really big territory,heavily populated.

Folks,it was just 12 friggin cities,only 2 of which can even be considered to be relatively big (but nowhere near as big as Imperial Athens of the late 5th century BC).
Alcibiades
 
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Nice arguments by all of you. Unfortunately, I couldn't participate to the thread as actively as before due to several university assignments but I am looking forward to reading each post thoughtfully during the weekend.

Also, Chandragupta did all this at a very young age. He conquered the Nandas at 20, defeated the Macedonian satraps at 25, and defeats the Seleucids and conquers almost the whole of India by 40. He was also tutored by an awesome mentor, Chanakya. Commanded one of the largest armies the Indians had every seen. Resembles Alexander very much. :zany:

Oh, I would love to see the result of these two great men (Alexander and Chandragupta) meeting in the battlefield. It would have been an epic battle, regardless of the outcome.
 
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And so you are bringing the fact that 2.000 troops were defeated in an ambush by the extremelly mobile nomadic horse-archers (most mobile troops on the planet at that time) to bring into question whether Macedonian army was inferior than Scythians?Are you friggin serious?!!The fact that you are calling that force an "army" at all is ridicolous in itself,but this!!

Any and all doubts as too which army was better,Macedonian or Scythian horse-archers (or any other nomadic army in the world),was unambiguously shattered and answered with the Battle of Jaxartes River,where Scythians had every possible advantage and higher hand,and Alexander had a rebellion behind his rear in addition to having to defeat Scythians,AND STILL came out defeated.Of course,in THIS battle,commander was Alexander,in contrast to the previous defeat.

Since you don´t actually know what the size of the Scythian forces are, I´m afraid there is nothing unambiguous about these battles. One must not forget that the entire population of the Kangju state at the height of its power, which held sway over all of Sogdiana and more, was only recorded to be 600,000 in the 1st century BC in the Han Shu, the population of Sogdiana in the 4th century BC was most likely even less. Central Asian polities at this time usually mobilized no more than a few thousand forces, and often only a few hundred. The Han forces captured the king of Loulan with only 700 cavalry. Even the most powerful central Asian states of Kangju and Wusun, with populations of 600,000 each, never mobilized forces larger than 20,000 on a campaign. Spitamedes was only a single chieftain of Sogdiana, it is plausible that his army was probably only a few thousand large at its best and very unlikely to ever surpass 10,000 even at the height of his power.

Furthermore, Alexander´s defeat of the Sogdian Sakas is really more of an anamoly of Hellenistic armies winning against nomadic archers, as his Macedonian successors; the Seleucid and Bactria were eventually defeated by Parthian and Scythian archers, the later completely overran all of Greco Bactrian states in its way. Yet they were fleeing from the even more powerful Yuezhi and Xiongnu, so these nomadic armies were certainly not of the same quality, in either the army itself or the generals leading them.
(We even know that the later Xiongnu bow had more laths than the Scythian and Parthian bows of the time and were more powerful. So even weapon wise the Scythians weren´t the best, although during the time of Alexander the Xiongnu might not be equipped with these).

Even the Roman army hardly showed superiority in quality over these horse archery armies. We know at least two times that the Roman army lost to numerically inferior Parthians, both in Carrhae and in Mark Anthony´s campaign. While the later campaigns under Trajan and Commodus never recorded any large scale field battles against the Parthians, and most likely simply overwhelmed them with superior numbers.

In all I think armies of the time were efficient relative to the terrain in question, the Macedonian phalanx might be the most effective in the areas it conquered, but without a sufficient size of cavalry, there was no way to conquer steppe nomads of any significant size(the Sacae in Sogdiana is a pygmy in comparison to the contemporary Scythians of the Russian steppe, or the Yuezhi and Xiongnu states of Gansu and Inner Mongolia, and even a bigger none entity when compared to the vast Xiongnu Empire of the 2nd century BC) as the distance required to penetrate into the steppe to any significant degree requires a monstrous load of logistics(since there are no permanent residents to take grains from) and the nomads could simply avoid battle if they wish with their superior mobility. Darius found that out the hard way with his disastrous Scythian campaign and the Persians left them alone for the remainder of their existence, as did Alexander. The early Han army likewise suffered humiliation against these nomads when emperor Gaozu was encircled at Baideng. The Han army was only able to defeat the Xiongnu after it created a sizeable force of cavalry and a huge horse reserve of 450,000(the Persian court only had around 50,000 stallions.)
Terrain might play a similar role in Indian warfare and the importance of elephants there is probably somewhat comparable to the importance of horse in steppe warfare, although I suspect to a much lesser degree since without a sizable reserve of horses and trained cavalry, an infantry based army cannot even engage in battle with the more mobile nomads, and without cities to capture, the invaders would only exhaust their logistics and retreat.

So India probably wasn´t the only place Alexander knew he either couldn´t conquer or would have extremely difficult time to conquer, the Scythians of Southern Russia was another one of these places.

As to your second point,no,Ionian population was not much more significant in relation to the rest of the Greek world,than Punjab population was to the rest of India.

People are deceived by the fact that Ionia had ridicolously out of proportion impact on the Meditteranean (and hence the world) history,and so think they were this really big territory,heavily populated.

Even twelve cities isn´t a small number by Greek standards. There were probably no more than 14 important cities in Greek Italy, which had a population of over a million. While we don´t have the exact figures, Ionia was much closely tied to the Greek world with more political importance than Punjab was to the Indian world. In any case, the fact that Alexander or the Persians conquered the Punjab doesn´t prove much in regard to conquest of Indian territory.
 
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There wasn't any "indian army" in 323 BC, there existed dozens of kingdoms in India.

The conquest of the whole of India would be basically a series of wars trying to unify it.

In that case, there wasn't any 'Greek army' circa 330 BCE either, as entire Greek world was never united until the Roman conquests.
 
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Since you don´t actually know what the size of the Scythian forces are, I´m afraid there is nothing unambiguous about these battles.
Have you not seen those small details like "MOST MOBILE UNITS ON PLANET FIGTHING ON TERRAIN WITH NO NATURAL OBSTACLES" or "SIMULTANEOUS REBELLIONS BOTH BEHIND ALEXANDER' BACK,AND ALONG THE COAST OF JAXARTES" or "DEFEATED AT THEIR OWN TURF"?Yes,this battle,if any,was very unambiguous.

Some facts to correct your misconceptions:

-Spitamenes was not an "Sogdian chieftain",but a Persian nobleman acting as a local (Sogdian) lord/baron.

-While being only one among many such,many insurgents from all over Bactria,Sogdia AND Scythian tribes across the Jaxartes flocked to his standard whenever it was required,and promptly scatter again,in accordance to guerilla warfare.

-Battle of Jaxartes River was not actually fought in Sogdia (south of Jaxartes),but to the north of it,in Scythia.

and last but not the least

-It was not actually Spitamenes who lead the enemy troops in Jaxartes battle (he was the one formenting a rebellion behind Alexander's back,in Bactria),but it was led by a "Scythian king" (probably a confederation of nomadic tribes under a sole,temporary leader).

Furthermore, Alexander´s defeat of the Sogdian Sakas is really more of an anamoly of Hellenistic armies winning against nomadic archers, as his Macedonian successors; the Seleucid and Bactria were eventually defeated by Parthian and Scythian archers, the later completely overran all of Greco Bactrian states in its way.
So,either Alexander WAS that great a general,and defeated an enemy many of his successors lost to,despite having the same brand of army,OR Macedonian army was superior,which would slightly reduce the prestige of Alexander' victory.

But you cant logically have BOTH (ie. questioning Alexander' ability due to a superior army AND questioning whether Macedonian army was better than Scythian nomads),since we have as an undeniable fact that he defeated them on more than one occassion (and only ever once a stray battalion lost,when ambushed).And both of those positions you have argued (or at least suggested) in the course of this long thread.

Its a classic example of "having your cake and eating it too".



Even twelve cities isn´t a small number by Greek standards. There were probably no more than 14 important cities in Greek Italy, which had a population of over a million.
And many smaller ones.

Greek world had perhaps as much as 1.000 city-states all across the Meditteranean in the late 4th century BC.Athenian Empire,eventhough relatively teritorially small (but rich) had some 200 subject-cities in its fold in late 5th century,and they didnt even have most of Greek Mainland,nor any of Italian or Sicilian cities (except a loose alliance wth a couple of Sicilian ones),nor any on the south of France,nor in Spain or North Africa nor most on the coasts of Black Sea.

So you see why quantitively speaking,12 citizens would of Ionia would not be all that much.

Alcibiades
 
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Have you not seen those small details like "MOST MOBILE UNITS ON PLANET FIGTHING ON TERRAIN WITH NO NATURAL OBSTACLES" or "SIMULTANEOUS REBELLIONS BOTH BEHIND ALEXANDER' BACK,AND ALONG THE COAST OF JAXARTES" or "DEFEATED AT THEIR OWN TURF"?Yes,this battle,if any,was very unambiguous.

The fact remains that you still have no figure on how large the nomadic armies are, nor how great of a commander the general who faced Alexander was. You simply lacks enough statistical data to make anything approaching an unambiguous claim that the Macedonian army was superior on an equal basis.

-It was not actually Spitamenes who lead the enemy troops in Jaxartes battle (he was the one formenting a rebellion behind Alexander's back,in Bactria),but it was led by a "Scythian king" (probably a confederation of nomadic tribes under a sole,temporary leader).

There were alot of Scythian kings at this time as the title doesn´t actually mean much. There were even lots of Sacae near the Tian Shan range which are well outside of Alexander´s control, it was these Sacae which overan the Sacae from Sogdiana. Just being a Scythian king does not mean his force was large or that he had the backing of the majority of the Sacae. The fact remains that these central Asian armies rarely mobilized more than a few thousand soldiers.


So,either Alexander WAS that great a general,and defeated an enemy many of his successors lost to,despite having the same brand of army,OR Macedonian army was superior,which would slightly reduce the prestige of Alexander' victory.

You have completely ignored another factor; the commanding ability of the different Sacae nomads. You have no idea who was leading the armies of those that overran Alexander´s successors. Furthermore, we are discussing how the nomadic armies of the time compares with the Macedonian army, not whether the Macedonians under Alexander the Great was better, which means generalship is not part of the equation.

But you cant logically have BOTH (ie. questioning Alexander' ability due to a superior army AND questioning whether Macedonian army was better than Scythian nomads),since we have as an undeniable fact that he defeated them on more than one occassion (and only ever once a stray battalion lost,when ambushed).And both of those positions you have argued (or at least suggested) in the course of this long thread.

I wasn´t. The discussion revolved around whether the Macedonian army was the `best` in the world. Reread the context of this discussion.


And many smaller ones.

Greek world had perhaps as much as 1.000 city-states all across the Meditteranean in the late 4th century BC.Athenian Empire,eventhough relatively teritorially small (but rich) had some 200 subject-cities in its fold in late 5th century,and they didnt even have most of Greek Mainland,nor any of Italian or Sicilian cities (except a loose alliance wth a couple of Sicilian ones),nor any on the south of France,nor in Spain or North Africa nor most on the coasts of Black Sea.

So you see why quantitively speaking,12 citizens would of Ionia would not be all that much.

You do realize there are other Greek cities other than these 12 which the Persians ruled in Asia. These Ionian city states were only restricted to the southwest and just happens to be the most important, but the entire northern coast of Asia Minor were populated with Greek, who were also under Persian control. Their total population was well over a million. There are also lots of Greeks who lived outside of Urban centers. Even in Greek Italy, the 6 major cities and their none urban surroundings had over 400,000 people. Ionian Greeks were one the four major tribes that Greeks were divided into. So the fact is that they were pretty important in Greek politics, much more so than Punjab was to India.
 
Joined May 2012
33 Posts | 0+
London
Wow some great arguments on this thread.....I signed up a few weeks ago so this is as good a place to write my first post...(first of many I hope)... Greetings to one and all....

Staying on topic, I think that if Alexander did seriously intend to conquer the Nanda Empire.... and his Rank and file were up for the job... I doubt that Dhanda Nanda and his army would have prevented him from fulfilling his "Nanda Campaign".

Perhaps the Nandas had the numerical supremacy... but this all counts for nothing if the Nanda Commanders cannot second guess Alexander's invasion strategy and nullifying his every manoeuvre... and there's nothing that I have come across that tells me they are of the same calibre as Alexander.

In addition we all seem to forget that we are discussing an era where ignorance and fear of the unknown were the norm. You and I can sit here in our arm chairs and discuss tactical formations...Google information about the various warring factions... talk about the prettiest shields....Pick up the phone and call our friends and family across the world...ad infinitum..... But that era was not the safe and cosy world that we live in today.

News of an undefeatable, great and terrible force from the west lead by an all conquering leader marching ever nearer would have reached the ears of the Nandas..... Such news inevitably leads to fear and fear (as we all know) can and will lead to panic.... and this fear would have been even more palpable after the defeat of Porus.....the invincible enemy is now at the gate.... Such Mind Games would have easily played in to Alexander's hands.

It would be interesting to know the mind of Dhanda Nanda at that point...

Since this is Speculative History... I'd like to think that Dhanda Nanda and Alexander would have met first before any blood was spilt... Perhaps over a nice beverage to discuss life, how beautiful India is...and terms of surrender.. :)
 
Joined Mar 2012
688 Posts | 0+
Athens, Greece
Wow some great arguments on this thread.....I signed up a few weeks ago so this is as good a place to write my first post...(first of many I hope)... Greetings to one and all....

Staying on topic, I think that if Alexander did seriously intend to conquer the Nanda Empire.... and his Rank and file were up for the job... I doubt that Dhanda Nanda and his army would have prevented him from fulfilling his "Nanda Campaign".

Perhaps the Nandas had the numerical supremacy... but this all counts for nothing if the Nanda Commanders cannot second guess Alexander's invasion strategy and nullifying his every manoeuvre... and there's nothing that I have come across that tells me they are of the same calibre as Alexander.

In addition we all seem to forget that we are discussing an era where ignorance and fear of the unknown were the norm. You and I can sit here in our arm chairs and discuss tactical formations...Google information about the various warring factions... talk about the prettiest shields....Pick up the phone and call our friends and family across the world...ad infinitum..... But that era was not the safe and cosy world that we live in today.

News of an undefeatable, great and terrible force from the west lead by an all conquering leader marching ever nearer would have reached the ears of the Nandas..... Such news inevitably leads to fear and fear (as we all know) can and will lead to panic.... and this fear would have been even more palpable after the defeat of Porus.....the invincible enemy is now at the gate.... Such Mind Games would have easily played in to Alexander's hands.

It would be interesting to know the mind of Dhanda Nanda at that point...

Since this is Speculative History... I'd like to think that Dhanda Nanda and Alexander would have met first before any blood was spilt... Perhaps over a nice beverage to discuss life, how beautiful India is...and terms of surrender.. :)

Welcome to Historum, Eroded! Nice post, my friend!:)
 
Joined Dec 2011
2,465 Posts | 3+
In addition we all seem to forget that we are discussing an era where ignorance and fear of the unknown were the norm. You and I can sit here in our arm chairs and discuss tactical formations...Google information about the various warring factions... talk about the prettiest shields....Pick up the phone and call our friends and family across the world...ad infinitum..... But that era was not the safe and cosy world that we live in today.
A very intelligent and thoughtful first post, Eroded.
However, our world isn't the safe cozy place you presume it is. Only maybe to you and those whom you may know. But, not to many millions of others on this planet. However, I do get the intent of the analogy.
Alexander was probably the greatest military tactitian of his or most any other eras in history. I, too, have no doubt; that if Alexander had the full support of his men, he could have come up with a strategy to defeat the Nanda. And fear of this onrushing seemingly invincible force from the west would definitely have infected the superstitious Nanda warriors. Much as fear of the Mongols preceded them as well. Confidence is a process ( lack of or too much of) often overlooked in many discussions on military tactics. And it can work both ways.
 

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