Anglo-Saxon/Anglo-Norse England

notgivenaway · Jun 29, 2015

stanilic said:
I am most surprised that an archaeologist told you that no Scandinavians lived within Mercia. The eastern part of Mercia certainly formed part of the Danelaw whereas, as I mentioned, western Mercia was controlled by King Alfred as part of his kingdom of the Anglo-Saxons.

I must apologise for a mis-statement. The archaeologist was speaking within a context of the area of North Buckinghamshire. This is a part of Mercia but also part of historical Wessex.

My point that the Danelaw had a ragged edge stands.[/QUOTE]

Id think as a border it was obviously set. But ethnically, it was mixed. Alfred knew that his culture had survived, and saw no sense in continued conflicts, especially as more Norse could come (and did far later in Cnut). Id think the numbers of ethnic Saxons in East Anglia, Lincolnshire, or Yorkshire were high, as the Danes only were a loose ruling class who imposed their language/norms onto the masses. The same is true of Northumbria, I'd imagine.

notgivenaway · Nov 7, 2015

stanilic said:
The Danelaw boundary as set out in the treaty was only an outline as it did not follow the topography. There were many instances of Christians under pagan rule and vice versa.

When I first stumbled across this I stood in the water meadows of the River Tove to the east of Cosgrove, I found it hard to accept as well but in no way did the boundary go to where Watling Street crosses the Great Ouse. I have tested this elsewhere and the local topography always wins.

A couple of weeks ago I had a leading archaeologist telling me there were no Scandinavians within the boundary of Wessex and Mercia. I was able to name one (residual evidence of an estate within a medieval field-name) and reference the submission to Edward the Elder of Danes around Buckingham.

The Danelaw boundary was defined using known landscape marks but it did isolate Christian communities under Scandinavian war lords. It also managed to delineate what could be called a broader, historical Wessex as opposed to the then existing boundaries of the kingdom.

The Treaty fascinates as much from what it doesn't say as what it does.

sorry to bring up an old thread, however most English place-names with Norse ending such as -toft, -by, and -thorpe are predominately in the Danelaw areas, or what is now Merseyside and Lancashire. Very few are in Wiltshire, Hampshire, the Sussexs, Kent or Hertfordshire (all in or largely in Alfred's kingdom). This may just mean that Danes in Alfred's realm just melded in with the Saxons, however it does show that stronger and more purer Danish communities were established in the north/east of England.

Another point is the dialects of Yorkshire and Leicestershire, which still have both Saxon and Norse influences. There are few Norse words in Dorset or Hampshire local vernacular.

stanilic · Nov 8, 2015

notgivenaway said:
sorry to bring up an old thread, however most English place-names with Norse ending such as -toft, -by, and -thorpe are predominately in the Danelaw areas, or what is now Merseyside and Lancashire. Very few are in Wiltshire, Hampshire, the Sussexs, Kent or Hertfordshire (all in or largely in Alfred's kingdom). This may just mean that Danes in Alfred's realm just melded in with the Saxons, however it does show that stronger and more purer Danish communities were established in the north/east of England.

Another point is the dialects of Yorkshire and Leicestershire, which still have both Saxon and Norse influences. There are few Norse words in Dorset or Hampshire local vernacular.

The point I was making is that the Danelaw was about spheres of influence and not dominion. This merely emphasises the personal leadership style of the period. The Danes within Wessex and sub-Mercia were just like other Danes but tolerated the reality of their circumstance so submitted to the rule of their local Anglo-Saxon lords - thus was England first made.

I live within the valley of the Great Ouse which was a region of conflict within those times and keep identifying locations which do not accord with the principal sentiments of most historians of the period. What I do find peculiar are those who consider the Danelaw boundary as a hard line delineated on a map with all the relevance of a modern political boundary. It just wasn't like that and there is copious evidence to support that view.

I have no idea as to what is meant by a `purer Dane' - is it something to do with butter?

notgivenaway · Nov 8, 2015

I'm simply saying it was a firm boundary, at least in terms of the establishment of farming, trading and administrative locations. Part of the reason for the Great Heathen Army was settlement (perhaps the Viking Age overall) as well as avenging Ragnar Lothbrok's death.

Key to English Place-names

From this study, it can be shown in terms of settlement at least, the Danelaw boundary held. I'd argue even in the Danelaw areas, the numbers of actual Danes was always low, as evidenced by the latest DNA studies.

stanilic · Nov 9, 2015

notgivenaway said:
I'm simply saying it was a firm boundary, at least in terms of the establishment of farming, trading and administrative locations. Part of the reason for the Great Heathen Army was settlement (perhaps the Viking Age overall) as well as avenging Ragnar Lothbrok's death.

Key to English Place-names

From this study, it can be shown in terms of settlement at least, the Danelaw boundary held. I'd argue even in the Danelaw areas, the numbers of actual Danes was always low, as evidenced by the latest DNA studies.

I am sorry but on the ground it was not a firm boundary at all. The main principal of the treaty was not the topography but the social rankings within the two different cultures. This is probably why it worked so well.

Sindane · Nov 9, 2015

notgivenaway said:
sorry to bring up an old thread, however most English place-names with Norse ending such as -toft, -by, and -thorpe are predominately in the Danelaw areas, or what is now Merseyside and Lancashire. Very few are in Wiltshire, Hampshire, the Sussexs, Kent or Hertfordshire (all in or largely in Alfred's kingdom). This may just mean that Danes in Alfred's realm just melded in with the Saxons, however it does show that stronger and more purer Danish communities were established in the north/east of England.

Another point is the dialects of Yorkshire and Leicestershire, which still have both Saxon and Norse influences. There are few Norse words in Dorset or Hampshire local vernacular.

Yorkshire is much more complicated than that.
It is a huge area, almost the size of Wales and with the same population as Scotland, it has differences within each riding.

This is a recording of an old dialect from the north riding but also quite east in the county. It almost sounds like the west country of England in parts, and unusual to me, even though I am from Yorkshire myself
(thanks to poster authun, who first posted this link in another topic)
Survey of English Dialects
Borrowby, Yorkshire
http://sounds.bl.uk/Accents-and-dialects/Survey-of-English-dialects/021M-C0908X0046XX-0700V1

Sindane · Nov 9, 2015

....I think industrialisation changed English accents. Very recent changes imo.
The Yorkshire accent, c 1900, linked above is in a rural area, but just down the road in industrial Leeds or Bradford the accent is different, harder and more clipped and does not roll lazily in the same west country way as the rural accent

notgivenaway · Nov 9, 2015

do you mean accent or dialect? if dialect, then i'm not sure the actual vocabularies have changed much in a long time. I cannot say about accents, though I suspect our current national accents only have been around for 100-200 years at best. Whether people in Tudor times in London spoke the same way is moot.

notgivenaway · Sep 13, 2016

The American said:
I just have some questions about this time period.

1. When did the Anglo-Saxons and Danes that settled in England (Danelaw) start getting along or feeling like the same people? I would assume there would be a lot of hostility against the Danes due to Vikings past.

Once England was established post-Athelstan, the Danes and Saxons were part of the same country, and had allegiance to the same king. They just had to live together, and the Danes were always a minority, even in the Danelaw areas.

2. Why was Canute the dane considered "The Great" and wiki says perhaps one of the best English monarchs.

Because of his North Sea Empire, and that he was an able ruler.

3. Was Anglo-Saxon England truly one of the wealthiest and cultured in all of Europe? I've heard it said before but not sure if true. If so why were they so wealthy and cultured?

In terms of administration, yes. This is based on the records, and mints and coinage.

4. Why did the Anglo Saxons never takeover smaller areas of Britan like Wales or parts of Ireland where as the Normans started doing so?

They did. Offa, King of Mercia, placed overlordship over Wales. King Edward the Elder, son of Alfred the Great, placed overlordship over Wales and Scotland. Athelstan continued this, and Cnut and then the Normans continued this tradition.

5. Finally. What did people from other parts of Europe think of the Anglo-Saxons/the Kingdom of England and vice versa?

Offa was friends with Charlemagne. Members of Saxon royalty used to marry into the Franks and German royal families. Saxons were sometimes mercenaries to the Byzantines.

Search

Search

Anglo-Saxon/Anglo-Norse England

notgivenaway

notgivenaway

stanilic

notgivenaway

stanilic

Sindane

Sindane

notgivenaway

notgivenaway

More History Discussions

Recent History Discussions

Trending History Discussions