Are europeans responsible for the native-american genocide?

Joined Nov 2020
80 Posts | 84+
Montreal
It is not irrelevant, its not a bad argument to say that we cant judge people 1500 people by modern morals...
"Modern" is a misnomer. What is modern? U.S. liberal values in 2022? U.S. conservative values in 2022? Current Russian nationalist values? Chinese nationalist values? Contemporary Salafi values?
and no, its its not comparable to what the russians are doing in ukraine.
Actually, you're right: what the Russians are currently engaged in is a war of aggression, whereas what Canadian and U.S. governments engaged in was ethnic cleansing at best, genocide at worst.
Its europe 2022, A LOT OF THINGS HAVE CHANGED HERE IN 500 years.
500 years? The links I've posted all refer to events that occurred in the 19th and 20th centuries.
And why single Out the russians?
Am I?
Its not like other countries of eqaul power wouldnt do the same when their financial and oil resserves are threatened.@KDF33
I don't think we can debate this here.
 
Joined Jul 2020
23,778 Posts | 9,439+
Culver City , Ca
Surprised no one has mentioned Smallpox and Measles. Their effect went way beyond any deliberate actions of collonisers, by some estimates up to 90% of the population in the 17th Century.
Plus venereal diseases. Nonetheless it wasn't deliberate although small pox infected blankets may have been given to the Indians to deliberately spread disease.
Leftyhunter
 
Joined Nov 2020
80 Posts | 84+
Montreal
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The term “genocide” & “Holocaust” usually refer to systematic planned intentional decimation of a particular demographic, don’t they? New World indigenous population decimation doesn’t really seem of that nature, I’d say it was of a more “organic” nature, analogous to when invasive species threaten native species, for most of the time outside of the intentional genocidal events at least.
The UN definition of genocide can be found here. What Canadian and U.S. governments did to the original inhabitants of North America fits the bill.

The Holocaust refers specifically to the Nazi genocide of the Jews.
 
Joined Jun 2015
1,946 Posts | 473+
Scotland
Plus venereal diseases. Nonetheless it wasn't deliberate although small pox infected blankets may have been given to the Indians to deliberately spread disease.
Leftyhunter
As an afterthought, the Norse don't appear to have introduced any pathogens to the Americas. I wonder if there is a reason for this or just blind luck?

I had read that the Americans gave us Syphilus in return though I think that may have been debunked.
 
Joined Jun 2022
3,748 Posts | 1,350+
Norway
As an afterthought, the Norse don't appear to have introduced any pathogens to the Americas. I wonder if there is a reason for this or just blind luck?
We hardly interrectated with them and left very quickly, no lasting influence
 
Joined Jul 2020
23,778 Posts | 9,439+
Culver City , Ca
As an afterthought, the Norse don't appear to have introduced any pathogens to the Americas. I wonder if there is a reason for this or just blind luck?
My money is on either blind luck or not much fraternization with the Indians.
Leftyhunter
 
Joined Jun 2022
3,748 Posts | 1,350+
Norway
It wasnt hernan cortez and his fellows that bought smallpox to the americas either, its not like every european has smallpox
 
Joined Apr 2010
50,502 Posts | 11,794+
Awesome
To put it this way... the EU gets 52% of its energy from Russia. Germany was really reluctant to set sanctions on russia, because of their dependensy on russian oil.

My own country is the second largest exporter of energy to the EU (22%), so with the sanctions put on russia we are getting filthy rich Out of this situation

Current events are not permitted.
 
Joined Jun 2015
1,946 Posts | 473+
Scotland
It wasnt hernan cortez and his fellows that bought smallpox to the americas either, its not like every european has smallpox
First article I could find suggested it arrived in 1520 with an infected African slave disembarcking in Mexico.

Ive read an article about this subject before that suggested that Measles was even more deadly than smallpox to indigenous Americans.
 
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Joined Jul 2020
23,778 Posts | 9,439+
Culver City , Ca
It wasnt hernan cortez and his fellows that bought smallpox to the americas either, its not like every european has smallpox
No but diseases came soon enough. STDs are not uncommon among the first colonizers.
Leftyhunter
 
Joined Jul 2013
3,256 Posts | 193+
China
The War against Native Americans did not end in the 1500s. It ended in 1891 with the Ghost Dance War. I don't know what modern standards you are talking about.

We can make an argument that conquest is a means to better a people or spread religion or an ideology. But that is what not what happened. Many of the settlers were bent on total biological destruction and subjegation of a people.
 
Joined Feb 2015
7,536 Posts | 1,053+
Germany
That was maybe some of the motivation behind it to, because i feel these kinds of ideas of collective guilt are getting mainstream and i find disgusting
Maybe you could distance yourself a bit by not saying stuff like „of course we are“.
 
Joined Oct 2016
11,628 Posts | 3,749+
Australia
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No, you right.. should have clarrified. I was more thinking about the first iberian wave of colonisation, and the death of countless south american Indians and cultures. Not the more recent manifest destiny and stuff like that.

Ofc, there was no way for you to know that considering that i didnt clarify, so my bad.

Edit: further clarification, of course we are the reason for all this destruction, but are we to blame from a moral perspective?

Its been a hot topic in Australia and controversial ( no one likes their ancestors to be accused of genocide ) . However it was a tricky situation and definition . A lot of similar stuff to what 'leftyhunter' pointed out played out here . and no, it was not 'nazi genocide' ( I mean, what was like that ... most of them where not so well organised ) and all those factors came into account . The government did not organise a genocide here . But in some cases it DID happen Eg, there is on historical record, a meeting that happened , in preparation to people going out to shoot Aboriginals and the ( civic ) leaders ... or whoever popped up to organise such things , sometimes under sanction, sometimes not , instructed people not to ignore shooting the women and children , so as to 'get rid of the problem once and for all ' . ( ie. so they would not be able to 'breed back' . That is certainly 'genocide' .
 
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Joined Oct 2016
11,628 Posts | 3,749+
Australia
Typical question of the current zeitgeist, but fundamentally a category error.

"Europeans", past or present, are not a group of people that have a collective agency in the way that individuals do. Some groups (like political parties, governments, companies, associations, etc...) can be considered to behave as single deliberate actors over some timeframes for some purposes, but "Europeans" cannot. It's too broad, too diverse, too disparate, and too disunified a set of people. As such, it is not a group that is capable of doing something wilful and, because almost all definitions of genocide require intent, cannot commit genocide. To make an imperfect analogy: it's like asking if a tornado is a serial killer, or rather (because there's no temporal limit on which Europeans are being considered) if tornadoes in general are murders. It's not a question that can be answered, because it doesn't make sense semantically.

Now if you want to ask about specific companies or expeditions of conquistadors, or specific Spanish (and later American) governments deliberately carried out incremental steps of genocide, then that's a whole other question. But just because a label might apply to a narrow group of people, doesn't mean that it's wise to apply it a much broader group of people just because it includes the former. Especially with emotionally charged terms like genocide.

Good point .

It is pretty clear that here it WAS Europeans arriving that ruined the place and people . We have evidence that others came here before them and did not do that , HOWEVER , it just happened to be the English that got established here . The French where snooping around too, doing expiditions and landings - there was nearly some jostling about the Botany Bay landing .

During that time , the French where running on a bit of a 'Noble Savage ' theme , and wrote much more glowing reports about the Aboriginals ( aside from the one Cook wrote after staying over in 'Cooktown' for some time for boat repairs - it seems to match this view ) . But if things had panned out differently, and the French had settled ..... who knows how things would have turned out ?
 
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Joined Oct 2016
11,628 Posts | 3,749+
Australia
I know close to Zero north americans tho, but ive seen some people who claim themselves to be natives, but look 95% white... this is only on YouTube and ........ like that, but If this truly is the case... the irony...

IMO that is out of control down here . When filling out forms applications etc I am constantly being asked if identify as an Aboriginal or not . If I identify myself as ..... ? Well, that aint gonna work . So they have introduced this new system of steps to establish 'proof' OMG ... ya dont wanna know about that !

Suffice to say , some people that look white Euro are Aboriginal , and some people that, by looks, are easily identifiable as Aboriginal cant get that bit of paper to say they are . Nuts ! . So, what to do, how to define ?

I prefer this new ID thing that is pooping up ' of Aboriginal descent ' ie, some of your ancestors where Aboriginal - that seems a reasonable definition .


Many Aboriginals here , and some that I know closely put in a good effort to be politically correct ... even ; " Aboriginality is a spiritual thing " so they are happy to include 'whitefellah' . Yes, in a way it is ... so I agree with them but then say " But if you are ' full blood Aboriginal ' , or have 'Aboriginal Ancestry' .... particularly if you are a 'Culture Man' ( 'traditionalist ' ) ... well thats a REAL Aboriginal with much deeper connections ... that others can't really fathom or comprehend . "

Then they will nod , and conversation will become 'more accurate' and not as 'politically correct ' .
 
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Joined Oct 2016
11,628 Posts | 3,749+
Australia
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< Edit out .... (it got taken care of ) >
 

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