Barbarossa Not Stupid?

they were not an anti-fascist but they were a victim of the nazi aggression.

Click to expand...

So was the Soviet Union.

And finally in early October 1938 if I’m not mistaken, the Czechoslovak authorities agreed to cede the ethnically Polish part of Teshin Silesia to Poland

Click to expand...

Yes, after Poland mobilized on the border and sent Benes an ultimatum. Poland only made those moves because Germany was also pressuring Czechoslovakia about the Sudetenland. And, while they did not coordinate with the Germans, the Poles took part in the partition of Czechoslovakia and even before they annexed the territory Poland negotiated with the Germans about what parts of Czechoslovakia would go to Poland and what to Germany. So, Germany and Poland were trading Czechoslovak territory. That seems enough to qualify Poland as Germany's accomplice.

Dir said:

And now I will lay out a number of Russian operations schemes in 1939-1940 - and the schemes created in accordance with the Russian documents of the 1940-first half of 1941 - declassified and available to us .

The WWII operations that the Russians managed to carry out

The Finnish campaign, November 1939 - March 1940. The campaingn was preliminary agreed with the Germans when the Russians proposed them the Secret Protocol in August 1939 a week before the start of WWII. The Russians failed to capture all of Finland, and was forced to limit themselves to the annexation of the Karelian Isthmus

Baltic campaign, June 1940

Bessarabian Campaign, June 1940

And here are the plans of operations that the Russians were planning to carry out, but the German invasion prevented them from realizing them. Plans recreated according to declassified Russian documents of the 1940-first half of 1941

State Border Covering Plan, 1940

- We see two powerful wedges stuffed with Russian troops and advanced towards Germany. If the Germans would start the offensive, these wedges meant a quick encirclement of the Russian troops and a subsequent disaster for them. And so it happened. Such wedges could be formed by the Russians only with the variant of their first strike

The Northern Version, 1940

"Southern" version, 1940-41

The version of May 15, 1941

Click to expand...

As I promised, I give a translation of explanatory inscriptions on maps and diagrams in my message yesterday No. 141 (see above)

- in the first scheme:
Baltic campaign, June 1940

CONVENTIONAL SIGNS
(checkbox) - location of army headquarters
(shaded oval) - places of concentration of Soviet troops
(underlined city names) - Soviet military bases
(notched arc) - naval blockade (!), with the Red Banner Baltic Fleet and probably the start and end dates of the sea blockade of the Baltic ports on the map at the top left
(parachute) - landing
A - army
SK-Rifle Corps
SD - Rifle Division
KK - cavalry corps
VDBR - airborne brigade

Second circuit
Bessarabian Campaign, June 1940
CONVENTIONAL SIGNS
(line of dots) - the Soviet-Romanian border until 06/28/1940
(shaded oval) - grouping of Soviet troops by 06/28/1940
(upper arrow) - operation plan
(bottom straight arrow) - advance of the Soviet troops 06/28/1940

Third circuit
State Border Covering Plan, 1940
Оn the map - simply Cover Plan, 1941 - I cited the year there incorrectly

ПрибОВО - Baltic Special Military District
ЗапОВО- Western Special Military District
КОВО - Kiev Special Military District
ОВО - Odessa Military District

Indicated for each district
1. the width of the defense in kilometers,
2. number of divisions of 1 echelon of cover armies and 2 echelons of cover armies and district reserve divisions
3. average operational density per division of 1 echelon in km.
4. depth of defense in km.
5. time of occupation of defense (lines) by divisions of the 1st echelon, in hours, time of exit to the defense areas of the remaining troops, in hours

CONVENTIONAL SIGNS
(oval) - 1 echelon of cover armies
(double oval) - 2 echelon of cover armies
(oval filled with dots) - reserves of districts

Fourth scheme
The Northern Version, 1940

On the map itself
Северо-Западный фронт - Northwest Front
Резерв ГК - Reserve GK (Commander-in-Chief)
Северо-Западное направление - Northwest direction (indicated as a separate front)
Западный фронт - Western front
Юго-Западный фронт - Southwestern front

The names of the fronts in small print indicate the number of divisions and corps of each front
ск- rifle corps
сд - infantry divisions
тд - tank divisions
мд - motorized divisions
тбр - tank brigades
кд - cavalry divisions

CONVENTIONAL SIGNS
(oval and winding line) - grouping of troops according to plan of 09/18/1940
(arrow) - actions of troops according to plans of July and 09/18/1940
(line of dots) - the first strategic objective

fifth scheme
"Southern" version, 1940-41
- the same district names as for the northern version
In the legend, a line of dots means the immediate task
a dashed line with serifs was added - the first strategic task according to the plans of 09/18/1940 and 03/11/1941 and an intermittent arrow - options for further actions according to the plan of 03/11/1941

sixth scheme
The version of May 15, 1941
- the designations are the same as in the fifth scheme

Maki said:

So was the Soviet Union.

Click to expand...

- Not certainly in that way

In fact, during the WWII Russia was

- aggressor
- occupier
- invader of foreign countries and their individual territories
- a combat associate of Nazi Germany
- Nazi Germany's partner in enslaving other countries
- an official friend of Nazi Germany
- victim of Nazi Germany aggression
- a country pursuing a policy of mass repression against small peoples of the Soviet Union
- an absolute world record holder in the mass shooting of prisoners of war
- the country that carried out mass punitive actions against local partisans
etc

Maki said:

Yes, after Poland mobilized on the border and sent Benes an ultimatum. Poland only made those moves because Germany was also pressuring Czechoslovakia about the Sudetenland. And, while they did not coordinate with the Germans, the Poles took part in the partition of Czechoslovakia and even before they annexed the territory Poland negotiated with the Germans about what parts of Czechoslovakia would go to Poland and what to Germany. So, Germany and Poland were trading Czechoslovak territory. That seems enough to qualify Poland as Germany's accomplice.

Click to expand...

- we are talking about the WWII, and not about previous years, aren't we?

The fact that it did not lead to war does not make German-Polish aggression on Czechoslovakia any less vile. Had the Western Allies not been in appeasement mode, war might have started in 1938 and Germany's attacks on Czechoslovakia would have been a perfectly legitimate casus belli.

Arminius said:

The USA produced War Plan Red, plans for war with the UK, in 1930.

On dir's logic that would presumably mean if the UK launched a pre emotive strike on the US it would be justified as a response to such plans having been made, irrespective of any intention (or lack thereof) behind the plans.

Click to expand...

Wait till Dir finds out that by 1939 France had invasion plans for Belgium... that were actually carried out by the French 1st army in 1940!
Soviets would be complete idiots not have to invasion plans for the Germans. By 1939, the two countries are bordering each other.

Teslatron said:

Wait till Dir finds out that by 1939 France had invasion plans for Belgium... that were actually carried out by the French 1st army in 1940!
Soviets would be complete idiots not have to invasion plans for the Germans. By 1939, the two countries are bordering each other.

Click to expand...

Of course. What do people think army planners do when there is no war. They make plans (no matter how unlikely) to attack countries.

Lord Fairfax said:

I

They were both guilty of invading other countries and starting a war, the only question is which thief would stab the other in the back first

Click to expand...

Teslatron said:

Wait till Dir finds out that by 1939 France had invasion plans for Belgium... that were actually carried out by the French 1st army in 1940!
Soviets would be complete idiots not have to invasion plans for the Germans. By 1939, the two countries are bordering each other.

Click to expand...

The question is that Russia had what is called a very bad credit history in the issue from 1918 to 1940 , if we talk about interventions against neighboring countries. And hoping that the Russians would have missed a great chance to hit Germany’s bare ... during the German invasion of England would be naive. As I already said, the Bolshevization of Europe was a cherished dream of the Kremlin authorities.

And as you know, in 1940 and in 1945 they successfully implemented the first two episodes of this blockbuster

Another question is that the Germans lost the Battle of England and delayed the landing. And when they saw that the Russians were busy with some kind of emergency military preparations and were transferring the Red Army to the western border - the Barbarossa plan received a green light.

And I think Stalin knew quite well the size of German troops and the military potential of Germany. And if three quarters of the Wehrmacht were to be involved in the landing operation against England, then the forces of the Red Army in 1941 were quite enough for an effective strike. It seemed to Stalin that 30 thousand tanks and 20 thousand combat aircraft guarantee the success of the Russian Blitzkrieg when the Germans climb to the British Isles.

And when the Kremlin received information that the Germans were preparing something bad against the Russians, the Kremlin’s plans had to be adjusted. And it was not a question of a powerful blow to the bare rear of Germany, but of a preemptive strike against the Germans, preparing their strike. And after the defeat of the Wehrmacht, they could return to their previous plans and move on to Europe further.

Let us not forget that in June 1941 Germany had long since completed universal mobilization. And the Russians without such mobilization had a 5 millionth army, and general mobilization more than doubled it. All. what they managed to carry out is a hidden mobilization in May 1941, which increased the army by about 700 thousand — I can clarify the figure. At the same time, they had enough heavy weapons at that time for the 30 millionth army

It remains to add that the Russian self-confidence before the outbreak of hostilities was always simply unmeasured.
I have to say that the Kremlin greatly overestimated the real combat potential of its army. The Russians always relied on the number of their tanks, and received little attention to the combat training of their troops.

The fact that the Red Army in 1941 was largely a colossus on clay feet, the Wehrmacht perfectly demonstrated during the summer campaign of that year

If Operation Barbarossa wasn't stupid then what is? In fact i would say it's stupidest thing history witnessed. First that Lebensraum concept, talking about making land suitable for German people, physical annihilation of dirty "bolshevik" Russians. Something normal brain can't understand very well. Second taking Russian resources such as gas at the Caucausus, reason why focus was swifted in direction of Stalingrad, i mean classic imperialism named nazism this time, being more sick version. Third is why am i writting this, how it got so stupid in the first place. Opening such a enormous frontline. Sure Red Army wasn't so strong before let's say 1944. Wehrmacht hoped to finish them off. But that's just not clever move. Those areas are vast, you are not Mongols, this is not 13th century. Tanks are moving with fuel. Not to mention rains, snow, summer heat. Communist doctrine of fighting is that you fight for yourself in regards if enemy don't kill you Stalin will. Fanatical defence with all these conditions before makes Barbarossa most stupid thing soldier and historian can imagine. Without Barbarossa Hitler would still be in win-win situation with Allies. That's the point.

Lord Fairfax said:

I think using "justified" or "guilty party" in this doesn't really fit. Both the Nazis and Soviets were militaristic totalitarian regimes, both bent on dominating Europe. The Soviets had long term aggressive plans, but that doesn't justify German actions or absolve the Nazis of guilt.

They were both guilty of invading other countries and starting a war, the only question is which thief would stab the other in the back first

Click to expand...

What is the evidence that the USSR aimed to dominate Europe ? Stalin liquidated organizations and individuals who were agitating for world revolution and was content with "socialism in one country" ....

His military adventures were carefully calculated to return territories (of parts thereof) that had belonged to the Russian empire and that had been given up (temporarily or so the bolsheviks claimed) due to the Brest Litovsk peace treaty..... with a secondary aim to put Moscow and Leningrad further away from axis forces...

tomar said:

What is the evidence that the USSR aimed to dominate Europe ?

Click to expand...

What evidence? Very simple. The continuous expansion of Bolshevik Russia in the western direction - territorial or political.

In 1918-1919 - Ukraine, Belarus. In 1920 Red Army was trying to storm Warsaw.

In 1939, the Russians invade Finland and before that they reform the Karelian Autonomous Republic into the Karelian-Finnish Soviet Republic. A clear attempt at the subsequent accession of all of Finland to it. Moreover, they are transporting the puppet government of Kuusinen in the convoy of the Red Army, and upon the capture of the first Finnish city they proclaim the recognition of the Finnish Democratic Republic with Kuusinen at the head. according to Russians - Finland’s only legitimate government. Annexation plan for whole Finland failed because the Russians did not reach Helsinki

In 1940, Russia annexed Lithuania. Latvia, Estonia, Bessarabia and Bukovina. In 1945 she unfolded a powerful political expansion, setting up pro-Moscow governments in East Germany, Poland, Hungary, Romania and Czechoslovakia within nearest years.

Then she tries to make pro-Moscow Yugoslavia, and the Soviet-Yugoslav politicalconflict arises. In 1956, Russians drove tanks to Budapest, in 1968 to Prague and deployed Soviet troops at military bases in these countries

It's enough?

tomar said:

Stalin liquidated organizations and individuals who were agitating for world revolution and was content with "socialism in one country" ....

Click to expand...

Stalin announced this slogan after the failure in 1920 of the first big attempt to carry out a military invasion of Europe

He realized that Russia’s resources for the success of such an attempt are clearly not enough. And so in 1930 Russia began the frantic militarization of her and her economy. Moreover, instead of the slogan of the “world revolution” Russia in foreign policy is more and more reminiscent of the Russian Empire in the 1930s, and there the Great chuvinism was growing

tomar said:

His military adventures were carefully calculated to return territories (of parts thereof) that had belonged to the Russian empire and that had been given up (temporarily or so the bolsheviks claimed) due to the Brest Litovsk peace treaty..... with a secondary aim to put Moscow and Leningrad further away from axis forces...

Click to expand...

- During the hostilities against Poland in 1920, Stalin was one of the leaders (Member of the Revolutionary Military Council of the Southern-Eastern Front) of the Russian troops that stormed Lviv. And Lviv with all of Galicia was never part of the Russian Empire.

And if you already admitted that Bolshevik Russia tried again to take control of the ethnically non-Russian lands of the former Russian Empire (and she really did that) - then you must admit that Russia ceased to be "revolutionary" and returned to a clear imperial trend.

Russian generals and officers of the tsarist army understood this as early as 1919. And when they saw that the Bolsheviks were recovering the territories of the Russian Empire lost in 1917 with iron and blood, they rushed into the ranks of the Red Army in whole crowds.

As a result, about 200 tsarist generals and more than 30 thousand tsarist officers joined the Red Army in 1919. General Bonch-Bruyevich later admitted that they were driven by a "patriotic motive." How much this motive was diluted with Great Russian chauvinism - he did not specify. But in any case, these generals and tsarist officers formed the professional core of the Red Army which in many respects ensured its victory in 1919. And the success in the new seizure of the lands of the former RI

As for the intervention of the Western powers mentioned in this topic against Soviet Russia - and Japan on their list - let's not repeat the declarations of communist propaganda.

The Entente won the World War in 1918. And could use after that a huge number of troops, military equipment, ammunition and everything else to smash Russian Bolshevism on the wall. At the same time, in 1918 a pair of German divisions were able to advance to Petrograd easily and quickly. The 30-thousandth Czechoslovak corps, which the Russians sent our of Russia via the Trans-Siberian Railway, rebelled and almost strangled the Bolshevik power in that country.

And in 1920, little Poland managed to completely defeat the Red Army - after which the Russians ran 450 kilometers within 2 weeks, and many Russian soldiers surrendered.

But the Entente limited itself to small-scale operations in the Arkhangelsk region (protecting the British military depots), as well as operations against Russian invaders in southern Ukraine (far outside from Russia itself - I mean RSFSR). Japan was somewhat more successful in the Far East - 5 thousand kilometers from Moscow.

The US government has decided to abandon interference in Russian affairs in 1919. England after a small operation in the Arkhangelsk region limited herself to supporting the Russian white underground and helped the White Army with weapons and ammunition. And the French made a fraternization with the Reds in Odessa.

Dir said:

What evidence? Very simple. The continuous expansion of Bolshevik Russia in the western direction - territorial or political.

In 1918-1919 - Ukraine, Belarus. In 1920 Red Army was trying to storm Warsaw.

In 1939, the Russians invade Finland and before that they reform the Karelian Autonomous Republic into the Karelian-Finnish Soviet Republic. A clear attempt at the subsequent accession of all of Finland to it. Moreover, they are transporting the puppet government of Kuusinen in the convoy of the Red Army, and upon the capture of the first Finnish city they proclaim the recognition of the Finnish Democratic Republic with Kuusinen at the head. according to Russians - Finland’s only legitimate government. Annexation plan for whole Finland failed because the Russians did not reach Helsinki

In 1940, Russia annexed Lithuania. Latvia, Estonia, Bessarabia and Bukovina. In 1945 she unfolded a powerful political expansion, setting up pro-Moscow governments in East Germany, Poland, Hungary, Romania and Czechoslovakia within nearest years.

Then she tries to make pro-Moscow Yugoslavia, and the Soviet-Yugoslav politicalconflict arises. In 1956, Russians drove tanks to Budapest, in 1968 to Prague and deployed Soviet troops at military bases in these countries

It's enough?

Click to expand...

All those territories were part of the Russian empire and had been "given up" due to the Brest treaty as mentionned..... Serbia was an old Russian ally

Regarding the eastern block of 1945, it is irrelevant to a discussion about 1941

tomar said:

All those territories were part of the Russian empire and had been "given up" due to the Brest treaty as mentionned.....

Click to expand...

- not this way.

Since the spring of 1917 - immediately after the February Revolution in Russia - Ukraine had its own government - the Central Council. Центральна Рада. And it conducted lengthy negotiations with the Provisional Government of Russia on the conditions for Ukraine to enter a new type of democratic federal Russia. Negotiations came to a standstill in the summer of 1917, and this led to the resignation of the cabinet of Duke Lvov in the Russian government, and he was replaced by Kerensky

The Ukrainian government did not recognize the Bolshevik putsch in Petrograd and announced the creation of the Ukrainian People’s Republic a few days after the coup in Russia. The emergence of Federal democratic Russia was to legalize a new government, which was to be approved by the Constituent Assembly. But the Bolsheviks dispersed the Constituent Assembly after its first meeting and organized a military dictatorship.

And when Bolshevik Russia launched a military invasion of Ukraine at the end of December 1917, Ukraine declared its sovereignty and secession from Russia.

As for the Brest-Litovsk negotiations, in addition to the RSFSR and the countries of the Fourth Union they were attended by a delegation from the Ukrainian People’s Republic. The Ukrainian government invited German troops to their country to drive out the armed interventionists of Soviet Russia. And with the filing of the Ukrainian delegation, an article 6 appeared in the Brest-Litovsk Treaty:

Article VI
Russia undertakes to immediately conclude peace with the Ukrainian People’s Republic and recognize a peace treaty between this state and the powers of the Fourth Union. The territory of Ukraine is immediately cleared of Russian troops and the Russian Red Guard. Russia ceases all agitation or propaganda against the government or public institutions of the Ukrainian People’s Republic ....

In the fall of 1918 when a revolution took place in Germany and German troops returned home from Ukraine, Russia (it was called then already - the RSFSR) launched a new invasion of Ukraine with the goal of annexing her. A new Ukrainian-Russian war began. After that, Moscow planted the puppet "Soviet government of Ukraine" there, the same as in other new national states on the outskirts of the former Russian Empire - after they were also captured by the Red Army.

And on the go-ahead from Moscow all these puppets dragged the newly made "Soviet republics" into the Soviet Union knocked together by Russia in 1922

This Russian scenario continued on. In 1939, Moscow tried to apply it in Finland, but failed. In 1940, successfully used in Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Bessarabia and Bukovina. And after 1945 - in a number of countries in Eastern Europe, which included the Red Army. But here Russia did not dare to annex these countries, but limited itself to securing pro-Moscow pro-puppet governments in them

Somewhere up in the discussion the subject of a German landing on British soil
while I attach no importance to a headquarters plan , of course they had a plan ,
like all the Soviet military thinking of the time , it was based on offensive , the Army did not practice defensive exercices
this would be seen as "defaitism" and be a big political problem

As for the launching , that was Stalin choice , it's pretty obvious that he thought 1941 was too soon
only one thing might have changed his mind
a successful landing in Britain !
Then launching an all out offensive before Britain surrendered would have to be considered ,
but Stalin preferred to wait ,
He was aware of the great effort by Britain to see the Moscow / Berlin understanding falter
From being in a position of power until the campaign of France , the quick victory made him a much more humble interlocutor
meanwhile Stalin had grabbed all he wanted ,
his move toward Moldavia freaked out Hitler as it made the Romanian oilfields vulnerable to a raid or aerial bombing

Hitler decision to attack wasn't reasonable , Stalin the supreme realist didn't understand Hitler drive
for many reasons Barbarossa struck the USSR at a critical time ,
even the expansion of the front to the new borders was a factor of confusion
whole warehouses were relocated , border fortifications were now hundred of kms from the border and had to be relocated
the telephone systems was being rewired , radios were rare
the table of organisation of units bore no relationship with the effective numbers
nobody had seen large number of the new tanks or planes
quality control was a joke ,
the upper echelons of generals were good , plenty of gifted commanders rose during the war
the weakness was at the field officers level ,
there were not enough , they were not trained enough often they had been promoted several levels quite quickly