Bulgaria and Romania - Shared History and Cultural Influences

Joined Sep 2010
7,699 Posts | 3+
currently Ancient Odessos, BG
Bulgaria and Romania shared history since the Thracians and the Dacians, /known also as Thraco-Dacians/, traces of which are still seen today. I'm mostly thinking about North Bulgarian folk music and songs, that have similarities in rhythm and musical expression to South Romanian songs and dances I have heard. There are bound to be other traits in the folk cultures of the two countries divided only by the Danube, some maybe coming form the time of the Thracian/Dacians, like the "peperuda" folk custom.
Dodola and Peperuda [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paparuda]Paparuda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
In Romania
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5ig9-Djfxw&feature=related]YouTube - ‪Obiceiuri - Paparuda - Jilavele - la Festivalul Mamaia‬‏[/ame]
In Moldova
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f9XYWzY_Ns&feature=related]YouTube - ‪P[/ame]
In Bulgaria
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpnM8I6TK98&feature=related]YouTube - ‪[/ame]

Any other ideas?
 
Joined Dec 2009
10,107 Posts | 48+
Romania
Good thread, as long as it is a "virgin" one. Specialist from both countries avoided it from different nationalistic and political reasons. I'd say the daco-thracian comon heritage is just a part of it. The cohabitation continued after bulgarian, slavs...invasions, under the name of neo-bulgarians and vlachs.
Paparude, as i know, is not a balkanic custom, neither a barbarian one, but a latin one.
Today, is 24 june, the day when the christian hollyday of St John the baptiser fussioned with barbaric holliday of Midsummer, all over europe. in Romania is known as Sanziene(holly-fairies, a latin term), Dragaica(a slavic one):
Sânzian
Dr
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midsummer]Midsummer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
 
Joined Sep 2010
7,699 Posts | 3+
currently Ancient Odessos, BG
Last edited:
Good thread, as long as it is a "virgin" one. Specialist from both countries avoided it from different nationalistic and political reasons. I'd say the daco-thracian comon heritage is just a part of it. The cohabitation continued after bulgarian, slavs...invasions, under the name of neo-bulgarians and vlachs.
Paparude, as i know, is not a balkanic custom, neither a barbarian one, but a latin one.
Today, is 24 june, the day when the christian hollyday of St John the baptiser fussioned with barbaric holliday of Midsummer, all over europe. in Romania is known as Sanziene(holly-fairies, a latin term), Dragaica(a slavic one):
Sânzian
Dr
Midsummer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I read about the Paparuda
children-paparude.jpg


being Slavic, connected with the god of the thunder Perkunas:
"...By descriptions of rituals in honour of Perkunas, the Thunderer took a taking priority place among the Baltic deities in sphere of a cult and was allocated with universal functions, first of all the carrier of fertility. Compare, for example, ritual of calling of a rain in Latvia (a latin source 1610), made on a hill in a grove, with sacrifice of animals of black color, a meal, conections with fire, and relatives Western-Slavic (compare. Dodola, Peperuda) and others Indo-European parallels testifying to the greatest development of the Indo-European cult and mythology of the Thunderer in the Baltic tradition. ..."http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Perkunas.htm

and found this video from a Russian village, with basically the same ritual:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQ9rIbWg3MQ"]YouTube - ‪Peperuda-pagan ritual of fomentation of rain‬‏[/ame]
 
Joined Dec 2009
10,107 Posts | 48+
Romania
hard to say, is not very well documented:
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paparuda]Paparuda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
 
Joined Dec 2009
10,107 Posts | 48+
Romania
This festival, of masks and bells bearers, in Croatia was, as I know, istro-romanian at origins:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RCNZXEr6uI&feature=related"]YouTube - ‪Zvon[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g272I5t55zs&feature=related"]YouTube - ‪IstroRomanians- Zvonciarii din Jeiani‬‏[/ame]
and is very similar with a custom from maramures and bucovina(north Romania- istroromanians is supposed to come from maramures):
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh-nYWdIAN0&feature=related"]YouTube - ‪Maramures-Romania;Traditii-Brondosii la Cavnic‬‏[/ame]
it is not similar ti bulgarian kokerie?
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7dnSGsnWUY"]YouTube - ‪Kookerie Festival in Pernik, Bulgaria - Jan. 2010‬‏[/ame]
 
Joined Sep 2010
7,699 Posts | 3+
currently Ancient Odessos, BG
hard to say, is not very well documented:
Paparuda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Yes, it's anyone guess now from where it started; the only fact is that it's found in both Romanian and Bulgarian folk cultures. I usually favor the oldest possible dating - now, it cannot be only Slavic, because it's documented in Romania and Moldova; and cannot be only Latin, since is documented in Bulgaria and Russia - so, where all these cultures meet - somewhere with the Thraco-Dacians. So I will opt for T-D origin, and later spreading to other Slavic cultures, like Russian and possibly Baltic.

Perix, do you have in Romania those red and white
martenici.jpg


spring amulets? I was told that they are worn in Moldova,in the same way they are in Bulgaria, on the March 1st every year. This custom is also believed to have Thracian origins.
 
Joined Sep 2010
7,699 Posts | 3+
currently Ancient Odessos, BG
This festival, of masks and bells bearers, in Croatia was, as I know, istro-romanian at origins:
YouTube - ‪Zvon
YouTube - ‪IstroRomanians- Zvonciarii din Jeiani‬‏
and is very similar with a custom from maramures and bucovina(north Romania- istroromanians is supposed to come from maramures):
YouTube - ‪Maramures-Romania;Traditii-Brondosii la Cavnic‬‏
it is not similar ti bulgarian kokerie?
YouTube - ‪Kookerie Festival in Pernik, Bulgaria - Jan. 2010‬‏
Yes, it's the same thing, as far as I can see. Here some Bulgarian videos:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-IcJ_NTE3o]YouTube - ‪Kukeri -[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8vJNSz4Qrw&feature=related]YouTube - ‪Kukeri‬‏[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g6rUAiL9F0&feature=related]YouTube - ‪Kuker Festival in Eleshnica,Bulgaria‬‏[/ame]
The ritual is believed to originate form Thracian times. Other theory connects it with the Roman times - "carro" "vale" - a kind of festivals when people wore masks and eat like crazy. "carro" can be connected both to "carna-val" and "kukeri" /since "c"="k", the same sound/.
 
Joined Dec 2009
10,107 Posts | 48+
Romania
Perix, do you have in Romania those red and white


spring amulets? I was told that they are worn in Moldova,in the same way they are in Bulgaria, on the March 1st every year. This custom is also believed to have Thracian origins.
You mean this?
M
yes, is very popular, and a huge headache for men. Even innitialy, the custom foreseen women have to give presents to men, women succeded to change it, in the last century- so, now, men have to give presents to women
 
Joined Dec 2009
10,107 Posts | 48+
Romania
Last edited:
The ritual is believed to originate form Thracian times. Other theory connects it with the Roman times - "carro" "vale" - a kind of festivals when people wore masks and eat like crazy. "carro" can be connected both to "carna-val" and "kukeri" /since "c"="k", the same sound/.
In romania they are called "brondosii" in Maramures, and "the bears" in Bucovina
... "carro" can be connected both to "carna-val" and "kukeri" /since "c"="k", the same sound/.
I guess it can't be omited the term "kluke"(bell, in germanic, in romanian clopot), somehow arrived via goths, gepids...)
 
Joined Sep 2010
7,699 Posts | 3+
currently Ancient Odessos, BG
You mean this?
M
yes, is very popular, and a huge headache for men. Even innitialy, the custom foreseen women have to give presents to men, women succeded to change it, in the last century- so, now, men have to give presents to women
Cool! Thanks for the link, I will read it carefully tomorrow, and will follow up then. Have to go to bed now, it's after midnight. Thank you for the meaningful discussion, Perix. Noapte buna.
 
Joined Dec 2009
10,107 Posts | 48+
Romania
Cool! Thanks for the link, I will read it carefully tomorrow, and will follow up then. Have to go to bed now, it's after midnight. Thank you for the meaningful discussion, Perix. Noapte buna.
good night, then, Anna!
 
Joined Nov 2010
4,571 Posts | 770+
Western Eurasia
This festival, of masks and bells bearers, in Croatia was, as I know, istro-romanian at origins:
YouTube - ‪Zvon
YouTube - ‪IstroRomanians- Zvonciarii din Jeiani‬‏
and is very similar with a custom from maramures and bucovina(north Romania- istroromanians is supposed to come from maramures):
YouTube - ‪Maramures-Romania;Traditii-Brondosii la Cavnic‬‏
it is not similar ti bulgarian kokerie?
YouTube - ‪Kookerie Festival in Pernik, Bulgaria - Jan. 2010‬‏

These carnivals in january-fabruary with masks and bells all seem to be related to me.

in Hungary we have Busójárás in Mohács, it is a Sokci Croatian custom here.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izAA039E0u8"]YouTube - ‪Busójárás 1‬‏[/ame]

but there are similar traditions in Austria, Germany, Switzerland,
Swabian

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yxibzxeYEo"]YouTube - ‪Bärzelitreiben in Hallwil‬‏[/ame]

Sardinia, Italy,

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFRJtBY4npQ&feature=related"]YouTube - ‪Ottana - La sfilata dei Boes e Merdules‬‏[/ame]

even in Spain [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5XBPLYBFKo"]YouTube - ‪La Vijanera 2011. (Silió.Cantabria)‬‏[/ame]

all to chase "evil spirits", in the Balkans often added to the legends that Turks were scared by this way.
 
Joined Mar 2011
6,304 Posts | 2+
Warsaw, Poland
I read about the Paparuda
children-paparude.jpg


being Slavic, connected with the god of the thunder Perkunas:
"...By descriptions of rituals in honour of Perkunas, the Thunderer took a taking priority place among the Baltic deities in sphere of a cult and was allocated with universal functions, first of all the carrier of fertility. Compare, for example, ritual of calling of a rain in Latvia (a latin source 1610), made on a hill in a grove, with sacrifice of animals of black color, a meal, conections with fire, and relatives Western-Slavic (compare. Dodola, Peperuda) and others Indo-European parallels testifying to the greatest development of the Indo-European cult and mythology of the Thunderer in the Baltic tradition. ..."http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Perkunas.htm

and found this video from a Russian village, with basically the same ritual:
YouTube - ‪Peperuda-pagan ritual of fomentation of rain‬‏

Polanie (pagan ancestors of the Poles) also worshipped the god Perkun.
 
Joined Jul 2009
8,895 Posts | 15+
Bulgaria
Polanie (pagan ancestors of the Poles) also worshipped the god Perkun.

Slavs from everywhere worshiped him and other Gods too, they were polytheists, this is until the christianization.
 
Joined Dec 2009
10,107 Posts | 48+
Romania
well, beside some cultural traits(which we could see are more international than we thought), I'd be interested in some peculiar linguistic links. As an ordinar romanian, i don't know much. It is known that in the communist period it was a kind of "agreement" between the countries, about their official history. specific, between romanian and bulgaria, it was a common "interest" that hide proofs of romanians history on south Danube. Instead, bulgarians agreed to deny any bulgarian trace at north danube. So, the lingvistic linc between romanian or bulgarian were posibly hidden, or marginalised. After 1989, i've heard from more or less specialists from neighbour countries(even from more distanced countries), the accusations that romanian specialists, in 19 cnt, banned a lot of slavic origins words, replacing them with neologisms from french or italian(which is not quite true-I know about 15% slavic words in our lexic since communist times). But taking in consideration their accusation the ratio was much more higher, I followed the subject. First thing I discovered, it was an objective thing: in fact slavic ratio becomed much more smaller, due to technical term, who make the lexic to increase dramatically. but this happened in every country(even slavs imported much from french). The day by day lexic, didn't decreased too much. Other thing I discovered, was that some regionalisms dissapeared, but it was a natural effect of the union of romanians. another thing: some words(not many) were treated by romanian dictionary, as dacian or latin origins, even it was clear they were slavic. Today, these sincopes dissapeared.
From the slavic words of romanians, many could comme from bulgarian, or slavonic(official church language) but, also from serbian, slovak, ukrainean...The romanian dictionary recognise them like this, with the mention that when we say slavonic, it could be implied any other slavic language-nothing is sure. About the link between bulgarian and romanian, could be, then, two categories: slavon origins(majority), and "bulgarian" origins. Those "bulgarian" origins, when I've checked, can't be found in any other slavic language- that could means that are from proto-bulgarian origins.
here is a video from a bulgarian, more or less nationalist, from Romania:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMF_XoAtbGc]YouTube - ‪In limba Romana "B" cu cuvinte bulgaresti !‬‏[/ame]
He present a list of words which begin with "b" in romanian, giving their correspondent in bulgarian, wishing in this way to show that "in words with "b" are such many, we could imagine the entire lexic. The video has some amusing things: he pretend words like "bulgarian", or "bucurestian" to be from bulgarian origins. But searching the list, I observed:
- the majority of the words are from slavic origins(and derivates);
- some are from "bulgarian"(proto-bulgarian, as I've asumed):
rom: rochie(rokye), bulg: roklija
rom: bolovan(stone), bulg: balvan
rom: breaz(virtuous), bulg: briaz
- some are from latin origins:
rom: biserica(church), bulg: tzarvka
rom: boci( to wail), bulg: bucy(butchy)
- some are from unknown origins, which could means are from daco-thracian origins:
rom: bot(snout), bulg: hobot
rom: bura(drizzle), bulg: buria
rom: bubui(to bang), bulg: boboti
- some are from greek origins:
rom: boboc(bud), bulg: bebok
I am not bulgarian speaker, nor I know how they are deffined by bulgarian dictionary, but since he is bulgarian speaker, i think some could be true. And since only those who begin with "b" are these, it could be many.
 
Joined Mar 2011
6,304 Posts | 2+
Warsaw, Poland
I scrutinized the word list Perix, but I'm afraid none of them rings a bell (I know this is a Bulgarian/Romanian thread but thought there might just be some link to Polish.) Well, there is one word that seems to mean something - the traditional Polish term for "wail" was "beczeć". "Stop crying" = "Nie becz", pronounced [bech]. Looks kind of similar, doesn't it?
 
Joined May 2011
2,740 Posts | 277+
Sweden
Are both Bulgarians and Romanians considered Slavic peoples? Because Romanian is otherwise a Latin language if i am not mistaken.
 
Joined Dec 2009
10,107 Posts | 48+
Romania
I scrutinized the word list Perix, but I'm afraid none of them rings a bell (I know this is a Bulgarian/Romanian thread but thought there might just be some link to Polish.)
I'm not quite sure what you mean, sorry!
Well, there is one word that seems to mean something - the traditional Polish term for "wail" was "beczeć". "Stop crying" = "Nie becz", pronounced [bech]. Looks kind of similar, doesn't it?
Indeed! eh, in conformity with romanian dictionary it come from latin(boace)
boci - definitie | DEX online
How do you explain in google translator it did not appear?
Google Traducere#
it is a regionalism?
it appear "jęczeć". A sinonim of "boci', in romanian is "jeli", from slavon:
jeli - definitie | DEX online
 
Joined Dec 2009
10,107 Posts | 48+
Romania
Are both Bulgarians and Romanians considered Slavic peoples? Because Romanian is otherwise a Latin language if i am not mistaken.
In general, is considerd a latin people, with his particularities. If you consider 15% of words are slavic, and, probably a more ratio of blood, yes, we are partially slavs. Some slavic nationalist rethorics say we are much more slavic than we recognise, but the truth is some of them hide more the romanian part of them than we hide our slavic part
 

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