Joined Sep 2010
7,699 Posts | 3+
currently Ancient Odessos, BG
Bulgaria and Romania - Shared History and Cultural Influences
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Joined Sep 2010
7,699 Posts | 3+
currently Ancient Odessos, BG
I would opt for a Roman origin then, since the last time all those countries were part of one cultural entity was in the Roman Empire.
Joined Sep 2010
7,699 Posts | 3+
currently Ancient Odessos, BG
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I did a little research on the Calusari and it seems that the custom has a Roman origin, from the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salii"]Salii - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame] . They were priests of Mars, and every year in march would go in a procession through the city, singing a hymn named [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmen_Saliare"]Carmen Saliare - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]. This hyms has become unitelligible by the time Cicero lived, and the Latin linguists cannot translate it from the fragments they have now, and recognize only 3 words - thunder, Janus , Ceres - two gods and a force of nature. This means that the ritual was very old, if by 1st century BC the Latin words in it became obsolete. It was dated to the time of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numa_Pompilius"]Numa Pompilius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame], the second king of Rome after Romulus, 8 cent. BC, he made the temple of Janus, whose name is recognized in the hymn.
Ovid talks about it in his "Fasti" /poem that describes the Roman festivals by moths and days, very useful/:
"...[259] Who will now tell me why the Salii27 bear the heavenly weapons of Mars and sing of Mamurius? Inform me, thou nymph who on Diana’s grove and lake dost wait; thou nymph, wife of Numa, come tell of thine own deeds. In the Arician vale there is a lake begirt by shady woods and hallowed by religion of old.28 Here Hippolytus29 lies hid, who by the reins of his steeds was rent in pieces: hence no horses enter that grove. The long fence is draped with hanging threads, and many a tablet there attests the merit of the goddess. Often doth a woman, whose prayer has been answered, carry from the City burning torches, while garlands wreathe her brows. The strong of hand and fleet of foot do there reign kings,30 and each is slain thereafter even as himself has slain. A pebbly brook flows down with fitful murmur; oft have I drunk of it, but in little sips. Egeria it is who doth supply the water, goddess dear to the Camenae31; she was wife and councillor to Numa. At first the Quirites were too prone to fly to arms; Numa resolved to soften their fierce temper by force of law and fear of gods. Hence laws were made, that the stronger might not in all things have his way, and rites, handed down from the fathers, began to be piously observed. Men put off savagery, justice was more puissant than arms, citizen thought shame to fight with citizen, and he who but now had shown himself truculent would at the sight of an altar be transformed and offer wine and salted spelt on the warm hearths...." Classical E-Text: OVID, FASTI 3
It seems that the meaning of the ritual was getting obsolete in his time. Mars being the god of war, and Dacia being settled with Roman soldiers, it makes sense to me that a such a ritual was performed there, in its "military" society, and passed in the folk culture.
Joined Jul 2009
8,895 Posts | 15+
Bulgaria
I doubt all of those are of roman orgin. At least i haven't met any data about such traditions being praticed in the Roman empire.
Its highly possible specially the "martenici" ritual to place martinca on your weist every March every year, that this is a thracian tradition, at least i heard about it, yet i've also seen this tradition with the Steppe people like the Chuvash's.
I've been watching a documentary once, and i've seen there a tree full with such martenici, as the tradition is to place the martenica on a tree.
However, what add's even more mystery to where those traditions came, is that the same tradition of "martenici" is practiced among the kurdish population as well.
Its highly possible specially the "martenici" ritual to place martinca on your weist every March every year, that this is a thracian tradition, at least i heard about it, yet i've also seen this tradition with the Steppe people like the Chuvash's.
I've been watching a documentary once, and i've seen there a tree full with such martenici, as the tradition is to place the martenica on a tree.
However, what add's even more mystery to where those traditions came, is that the same tradition of "martenici" is practiced among the kurdish population as well.
Joined Sep 2010
7,699 Posts | 3+
currently Ancient Odessos, BG
The Ancient Roman festival "Saturnalia" was pretty similar to the "kukeri" because people wore masks:
"...Carnevale has roots in pagan festivals and derives from an ancient roman cult, the Saturnalia, pagan rites of fertility which were celebrated in honour of the god Saturn. People used to go out parading with noisy instruments, eating and drinking wine.
As many pagan traditions, these celebrations were adapted to fit into the Catholic rituals, marking the beginning of the Lent fast, where people were not allowed to eat meat...."http://www.italiankids.co.uk/carnival.php
"... Martial Epigrams Book 14 (circa AD 84 or 85) is a series of poems each based on likely saturnalia gifts, some expensive, some very cheap. For example: writing tablets, dice, knuckle bones, moneyboxes, combs, toothpicks, a hat, a hunting knife, an axe, various lamps, balls, perfumes, pipes, a pig, a sausage, a parrot, tables, cups, spoons, items of clothing, statues, masks, books, and pets...."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnalia
Also, this Ancient Roman festival:
"...Lesser Quinquatrus:June 13 - 15This festival was celebrated by the flute players who played at religious ceremonies. During the Lesser Quinquatrus they played their flutes on the streets of Rome, wearing masks and long robes...."http://www.musesrealm.net/rome/festivalsinfo.htmlinvolves a procession of masked flute players.So, I definitely can see one of 2 mentioned Roman rituals as the origin of both the "kukeri" and it's counterparts in Romania, Germany, Spain, etc.
Besides, when people from Germany to Spain to Bulgaria have one and the same ritual it will be unreasonable to suggest that they have nothing in common in their origin. The the custom cannot have started with the Thracians, since there are no Thracians in Spain and Germany.
As for the "martenici", so far I'm opting for Thracian origin, since they exist in Bulgaria, Romania and Moldova - all Thracian-Dacian territories.
Joined Sep 2010
7,699 Posts | 3+
currently Ancient Odessos, BG
The Bulgarians are Slavs /actually the Old Bulgarians [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Great_Bulgaria]Old Great Bulgaria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame] came from Central Asia, mixed up with Slavs, and pretty mush assimilated with them/. Bulgarian is a Slavic language, form the South Slavic branch.
The Romanian language is a Romance one, from the time when Dacia was a Roman province, and heavily populated with Roman solders to keep the frontier safe for the empire, and roman colonists to dig the rich gold and silver ores. Then different tribes came about - Goths, Huns, Avars, Bulgars, Cumans, etc. There are several theories for the genesis of the Romanian ethnos [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_Romanians]Origin of the Romanians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame] but the Latin language stuck. In some respects Romanian is closest to Latin, and some Roman cultural traits survived there - like the maize porridge called "kachamak", the same thing like the Italian polenta, was the regular food for the Roman soldiers, but with wheat flour /maize didn't yet make it from the Americas by then/.
Joined Sep 2010
7,699 Posts | 3+
currently Ancient Odessos, BG
That's a real good info, Perix. I can get to it tomorrow, and make a lingustic analyze for every word, and track it's lingustic closeness step by step, according to the rules of linguistic change; usually, it there are 3 steps to change one word into another, the connection is considered proven, 3-5 steps is plausible, more than 5 - less plausible.
I think you have a really plausible case here.
It is possible, but based on the primitive character of it, can be even older origin. wearing masks to scare evil spirits seems to be wide spread among idegenous peoples as are winter-spring celebrations (except for natives who live on tropical climate i guess...). So who knows, can be of pre historic origin..
Joined Sep 2010
7,699 Posts | 3+
currently Ancient Odessos, BG
It can be. I was going for Roman because it is the first historical reacord of such customs that I came about, but its very possible this to be a far older one that passed into the Roman culture from ages before.
Joined Jul 2009
8,895 Posts | 15+
Bulgaria
Some genetic studies might prove you wrong.
The Archaeology News Network: DNA Analysis Reveals Pamir Origin of Bulgarians
Check it out here too and compare it with other slavic countries - European Y-DNA haplogroups frequencies by region - Eupedia
Joined Dec 2009
10,107 Posts | 48+
Romania
hard to believe this kind of mobility of pre-historic populations. i'd rather think to a thraco-daco-illyro pastoral population(some kind of pastore romanorum), dislodged by different barbarians, especially goths, lombards, from balkans to Italy and Spain. All customs have in common sheep&goat furs, bells and masks(the masks represent mainly rams, buck and goats).
Joined Sep 2010
7,699 Posts | 3+
currently Ancient Odessos, BG
You mean, Tharcian-Dacians went all over Germany, Spain and Italy? But then they would preserve something from their langauges too, other customs too - when there is only one isolated custom that cannot account for whole tribes moving here and there. On the other hand, all of the above mentioned nation/places were part of the Roman empire, a gigantic melting pot from Romania to Spain, Roman citizens moving everywhere are carrying their precious scared rituals. It makes sense to me anyway.
Joined Dec 2009
10,107 Posts | 48+
Romania
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It is a scattered custom- not neccessarely to preserve language and/or other customs. It is alike with Morris Dance/Moresca/Calusari. In Romania is only in the northern part of the country. posible, for example, the custom it was introduced by a very small group of those migarnts, but the public liked it and took over it
another similar example could be alpenhorn traditions
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bI5zJSnmxLs"]YouTube - ‪Alphorns on Mottarone, Italy‬‏[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP-3yYhDe08"]YouTube - ‪Alphörner in Düsseldorf‬‏[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4by1NuyfRY"]YouTube - ‪Alpenhorn blowing for National Day, Basel‬‏[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN6f7XfoLc0&feature=related"]YouTube - ‪Şipotul - Zdârnâita în doi - Rogojana / Suite of carpathianhorns tunes‬‏[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7fjKcT2sos&feature=related"]YouTube - ‪Melodie la bucium din satul Baceviţa‬‏[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O8vxxpgSp0&feature=related"]YouTube - ‪Roman in Lume - Tulnic - Maria Ana Gligor - Muntii Apuseni‬‏[/ame]
Joined May 2011
2,740 Posts | 277+
Sweden
Lol, my tribes origins lay in the Pamirs (Tajikistan) as well. We may be distaaaaaant relatives
Joined Aug 2010
17,765 Posts | 23+
Central Macedonia
Joined Sep 2010
7,699 Posts | 3+
currently Ancient Odessos, BG
I haven't seen this one - the last I remember seeing said that the Mediterranean genes are prevalent in Bulgarian, then Pmir, the slavic genes.
However, I referred to cultural identity, not genes. Bulgarian is a Slavic language, right? The prevalent amount of Bulgarian folk customs and music are Slavic, not Pamirian. Genes don't men much, only show who came from where; the prevalent culture is what matters, and such culture is based on language, religion, etc.
Joined Jul 2009
8,895 Posts | 15+
Bulgaria
I don't argue the culture, but still traces of non-slavic culture and traditions can clearly be traced in Bulgarian language.
Here some words for example:
Balcik/Балчик (a name of a city) - turkic ethymology bialɨk means "fortress".
Kosia/Кося - turkic ethomology "kes" the word means "mow" (like mowing a yard) on chuvash language "kesmek"
Shile/ Шиле - turkic ethomology "şişek"/sīĺe-gu
Pita/Пита - a bread – a loaf
Gerdan/Гердан - neckless, both seen in persian and turkic languages.
There are many more examples, some words don't have analogy in other slavic languages.
Joined Sep 2010
7,699 Posts | 3+
currently Ancient Odessos, BG
Of course, there are traces of non-Slavic culture and traditions, I never agrued that such traces don't exist. Geographic names for example are very conservative, so it makes sense some words from Old Bulgarian to have seeped down to present times. However, when it comes to words form Turkic languages in Bulgarian language, there is a problem definining the time when and how those words entered the Bulgarian vocabulary - from before the Old Bulgarian became assimilated in the Slavic culture, or during the 5 centuries when Bulgaria was a part of the Ottoman Empire.
Unless we have a particular Turkic word attested in Bulgarian literary document before 1393, there are bigger chances that this word came form Turkish during the Ottoman period, than before it. The word "pita" in particular is a Turkish word that appears also in Arabic, and unless I see it documented in use before 1393, I will consider it a Turkish word, attesting that Bulgarian language has influx of Turkish words as a result of being a part of the Ottoman Empire. The words "shile", "gerdan", "kosia", "Balchik", too, they exists in the Turkish language and unless I see them documented form before the Ottomans came about, I will consider them Turkish ones, that seeped in Bulgarian during the Ottoman rule, evidence of the ottoman influence on Bulgarian, not a trace left form the Old Bulgarian language.
Joined Sep 2010
7,699 Posts | 3+
currently Ancient Odessos, BG
To prove that a particular tribe traveled over to Spain, or Italy form Romanian we need more that one custom, we need language traits, DNA tests, stuff like that. the Morris dance seems to me a Roman ritual, everything fits fir it to be a Roman one - the name, the custom, the geographical spread. Now, if we can prove that the bicium wasn't use at any time by the Romans, or the Germans, then we can talk about it coming from the Dacians. Besides, the influence of it may had flown from Austria and Italy to Romania, not the other way around. We can prove a connection, in other words, but we cannot prove who was first with a particular custom, unlsee we have it written in some primary source. I will research a little about the bicium and will tell you my opinion when I have enough info to form one. For the Morris Dance and the kukeri/carnaval traditions I opt for a Roman origin.
Joined Dec 2009
10,107 Posts | 48+
Romania
It is not something to proove, it is an argument for an hypotesys. All our oppinions are hypothesys. If it would been posible to proove, it would been prooven by now by specialistst. Tulun argued about the barbariac traits of the custom, and positioned it deep into history. I argued it would been fard for pre-historic populations to have such of mobility-besides even harder to preserve the customs over indo-europeans, romans. Besides, there are similitudes with roman saturnalia, except costumations, masks, bells...It could been, originaly, barbarians conquered by romans, and who celebrated saturnalia in their own way and with their own costumations. former common citizens of roman empire, from panonia, Germania, helvetia, dacia, balkans, no matter if celts, dalmatians, illirians, dacians, thracians, after barbarians take-over, becomed vessels to barbarians, and their new nobility was formed by barbarians. Since these new "nobilities" moved from a place to other, it is not imposible to bring some of their vessels with them. Again, it was not neccessary the custom to been brought by a large population, but, if the locals liked it, they claimed it as their own.
It is not imposible alpenhorn to be brought from Helvetia to Romania, but I'd opt for helvetic romanche(maybe italian friulians) connections- former archaic latin populations, and highlanders, like vlachs.
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