Can we all agree Capitalism is closer to Fascism than Socialism and Communism?
- Thread starter Mrbsct
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Joined Aug 2014
10,465 Posts | 4,802+
Australia
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I suggest that we either use the same method that they used in the 1980s to calculate today's inflation, or go back and recalculate all of the inflation rates of the 1980s and 90s using today's method. In either case, it will show that real wages have declined significantly over the last few decades.
This might help.
Is Inflation 5% Or 14%? It Depends On How It's Measured | FedSmith.com
Inflation was raging in 1980 and again in 2022. How the government measures inflation has changed, and you will be amazed at the difference.
www.fedsmith.com
I haven't read the above book but historically the global labor market does not end it expands. Look at any major industrial product such as the automobile and airplane which were first developed in Germany and the US respectively. In a matter of a few years other labor forces and designer's could build automobile's and aircraft in their respective countries and the quality and price were on par with the country of origin. Even a top secret industrial product such has the atomic bomb could and was manufactured by various global work forces.
Leftyhunter
Joined Feb 2016
900 Posts | 837+
United States
I would consider it fair to say capitalism does make more sense under a fascist government, but otherwise disagree with the concept it is entirely compatible.
Fascism's main economic thrust is strong state control over the economic levers of power, but does not preclude capitalism. Hybrid systems like post-1970 China pursued communist ideology but allowed for capitalistic projects to flourish out of a pragmatic concession it was a better way to keep the economy more solvent.
Under the Nazis, for example, they pursued some socialist concepts, such as trying to eliminate the difference between labor and employers by having them melded into one overarching representative body with no competitors. At the same time, however, profit seeking by the employer was also encouraged because capitalism was more profitable than following socialist/communistic doctrine to it's logical conclusion.
Capitalism is thus, to my mind, merely a framework that can be adapted to serve needs in a fascist, socialist, or communist state that those ideologies cannot entirely serve on their own, not something that naturally leads to fascism a priori.
Fascism's main economic thrust is strong state control over the economic levers of power, but does not preclude capitalism. Hybrid systems like post-1970 China pursued communist ideology but allowed for capitalistic projects to flourish out of a pragmatic concession it was a better way to keep the economy more solvent.
Under the Nazis, for example, they pursued some socialist concepts, such as trying to eliminate the difference between labor and employers by having them melded into one overarching representative body with no competitors. At the same time, however, profit seeking by the employer was also encouraged because capitalism was more profitable than following socialist/communistic doctrine to it's logical conclusion.
Capitalism is thus, to my mind, merely a framework that can be adapted to serve needs in a fascist, socialist, or communist state that those ideologies cannot entirely serve on their own, not something that naturally leads to fascism a priori.
At the same time the Nazis had fierce competition between various private firms on military contracts. Stalin set up competing air bureau's or state owned aviation firms such has Mig, Yak ,Tupelov, and other's that also competed for state contracts .
Leftyhunter
Joined Oct 2011
40,550 Posts | 7,631+
Italy, Lago Maggiore
I do remember the first time I was elected.
A representative made me note that if in the parliament you keep on walking left ... you will reach the right!
Well ... the other way round is more difficult: you have to walk through the desks of the Presidency! And that's not so easy, even for a representative ...
This to say that the real difference is between moderates and extremists.
A representative made me note that if in the parliament you keep on walking left ... you will reach the right!
Well ... the other way round is more difficult: you have to walk through the desks of the Presidency! And that's not so easy, even for a representative ...
This to say that the real difference is between moderates and extremists.
There is little difference if we are talking about government contracts. But the rest of the economy in the communist system (and to a degree under fascist regimes) is run by central planning, not the market.
Joined Feb 2011
10,194 Posts | 3,839+
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There was a time when moderates just wanted slaves to be treated better or at best emancipated but segregated. They wanted men to act like gentlemen towards women but don’t want those same women to have an equal right to vote. Appeals to equality for black people and women were the extreme views of society. Whereas on the other end you get the KKK. Extremists in both ends share extreme incentives to resort to extreme methods because at least at face value that’s the quick way to change a status quo whose existence often relies on the moderates, a status quo that the “extremists” find insufferable. But similar extremes in methodology doesn’t necessarily mean having similar goals.
MLK wrote in the “Letter from the Birmingham City Jail”:
“… the .....’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action’; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the ..... to wait for a ‘more convenient season.’ ”
MLK wrote in the “Letter from the Birmingham City Jail”:
“… the .....’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action’; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the ..... to wait for a ‘more convenient season.’ ”
"Free market capitalism" comes with the rider "free market" precisely because it is not the only possible form of capitalism.
Joined Apr 2018
3,115 Posts | 1,300+
Paeania
Yes. Doesn’t this imply that if you want to maximally minimize indoctrination then you ought to minimize the extent of the political?
Joined Jun 2014
17,822 Posts | 9,478+
Lisbon, Portugal
That concept doesn't come from a socialist tradition, but rather from a corporatist tradition, which was a late-19th-century conservative response to socialism, and also to the socially disruptive effects of rapid capitalist industrialization.
Nazism did adopt a "softer" form of a corporatist society, but not exactly out of principle or ideological zeal. Nazis were not conservative, neither Hitler, or any other high-decision makers in the economic policy of the Third Reich were ideologically committed in constructing a corporatist society. They adopted it for utilitarian reasons.
Yes, corporatist tradition as the conservative response to socialism was an attempt to resolve workers-capitalist conflict about wages by government mediation. As with many other government interferences, it turned out to be nonproductive. Eventually, collective bargaining took care of the conflict, more or less.
Joined Feb 2016
900 Posts | 837+
United States
Well, it did, on paper, fulfill the "socialist" mantle, being an attempt to eliminate the divide between labor and employer in theory, but I don't disagree its corporatist in practice.
Given it was a fusion of the two enforced by the state, it was thus "National Socialist", which was a fig leaf way of claiming to fulfill their stated agenda per their party platform.
That said, it still didn't preclude otherwise pursuing capitalism with a strong dose of state control otherwise.
I'm not sure that I understand correctly what you mean by "the political", do you mean by that the government intervention in society?
Joined Mar 2012
4,690 Posts | 1,352+
Bumpkinburg
Corporatism often gets associated with socialism and capitalism, but I find its focus (such as centralization) is systemically at odds with both, since it often destroys the foundations of competition and the rights of workers.
In my humble opinion, any adatpations of corporatism to work with either of the other economic systems are a result of conflict with them.
In my humble opinion, any adatpations of corporatism to work with either of the other economic systems are a result of conflict with them.
Great points. This makes more sense if you substitute other words for the word socialist (as in "they pursued some socialist concepts") because the Nazi state employed statist approaches in pursuit of national objectives and had no interest in equalitarian outcomes. The difficulty in all of this, of course, comes from the fact that contemporary society back in the 1920s and 30s failed to understand fully the political landscape and words were often used by individuals that a modern day political scientist would find problematic. To support this, one only has to put one toe in the water of the politics of the time to know that those who were in organised gangs hunting down 'socialists' were hardly likely to be 'socialists' even where the words National Socialist Party were bandied around
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