Chinese view on the steppe peoples
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Joined Feb 2022
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The scientific and cultural achievements of the Song were never sustainable in the long run because they were made possible only because of a massive imbalance of investment toward the civilian sector over the military, something that it really could not afford to be doing given the broader geopolitical situation of the time. But a bit of diplomatic 4D chess, allying with the Jin to destroy the Liao, and then using the Mongols to destroy the Jin, allowed the dynasty to persist much longer than it really deserved to, but in the absence of some other great steppe power to strike the Mongols in the rear they were always doomed to fall in the long run and it's surprising they even lasted as long as they did. The Ming sought to correct for this weakness from the get go, and in the early years of the dynasty they adopted a very aggressive posture, launching numerous expeditions into the steppe to fight on the Mongols' home turf while dispatching the treasure fleets to project power in other directions, and all of this naturally came at the expense of civil development. After the shock of the Tumu crisis they abandoned this forward defense policy in favor of digging in, both along the Great Wall and on the coasts, and adopting that isolationist stance just as radical developments were occurring elsewhere in the world meant that China lost its technological edge which of course would have dramatic ramifications in the centuries ahead.
Joined Feb 2015
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Despite the long resistant the Song gave, there was no punishment at all, other than becoming the last division perhaps afaik. Despite his anti confucian stance, Khublai was really mellow and sympathetic towards Chinese civilization. Strangely enough he had a confucian education IIRC, so that education was more about „know thy enemy“. Ariq OTOH was about fully exploiting China in favor of Mongolia, but he lost.
Joined Feb 2022
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To his credit, Kublai realized that it was best not to kill the golden goose, and that the basic structure of Chinese society had to be maintained in order to keep the tax revenues flowing in. Unfortunately the other Mongol leaders didn't quite get the memo on this, which is why their rule didn't last very long.
Joined Feb 2011
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I don't agree with everything macaquerie said, but quote just what he said that makes him so "very pro Chinese and completely biased".
Joined Oct 2011
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Italy, Lago Maggiore
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I remember to all to take part to the discussion without attacking the other participants in any way.
Thanks for your cooperation.
Joined Feb 2015
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I just think so. And apparently I admire the Mongols too much and care not about the Chinese. Like I wrote some careless stuff about the Chinese. There was nothing particularly careless imo. And there are no other rulers whose rule didn‘t last for very long because they didn‘t get the „memo“, how can this be? so I think he misunderstood or something. There is nothing to discuss here.
Joined Feb 2022
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How exactly was Kublai's rule bad for Mongolia? It's not as it he was some Sinophile who was keen to turn his people into sedentary farmers and bureaucrats, he was simply a practical ruler who realized that governing China would require leaning on local expertise. And it is simply an objective fact that his successors were generally incompetent rulers who could not manage the complex balancing act that Kublai devised in order to hold the empire together. The later years of the Yuan were plagued by poor governance, dynastic infighting, and a general breakdown in central authority that ultimately led to their downfall, which also kind of mirrors the fate of the other khanates that tried to rule over settled peoples.
Joined Feb 2015
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Mongolia became just a province basically, before it was the homeland and main seat of the Mongols. So certainly it was not the best obviously. I am not saying it was "bad". And also how did the later emperors kill the "Golden Goose"? The empire succumbed, but there was no killing of the "Golden Goose".
Joined Feb 2011
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I read that discussion and perhaps you should do some self reflection? I made this post with partly that discussion in mind:
Joined Feb 2022
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Washington, DC
Rulers tend to locate their capitals near the major centers of commerce and industry so as to better control the flow of wealth, this is the same reason why the early Muslims largely abandoned Arabia in favor of Baghdad, Damascus, and Cairo. And the geography of China is not very suitable for nomadic herders, so attempting to maintain a traveling court that lived completely separate from their settled subjects, as some of the western khans did, was not really feasible.
Once again, it is indisputable that the Yuan dynasty began to fall apart after the death of Kublai, because his successors weren't as galaxy brained as he was about trying to integrate all of the different ethnicities of the empire into a stable and coherent whole, and were mainly focused simply on extracting as much wealth as possible, and the generally poor governance lead to widespread famine and social unrest which precipitated the downfall of the dynasty. If they had managed to produce a few more leaders like Kublai, then who knows what they could have accomplished, but they simply didn't.
Even though more recent scholarship has done much to demonstrate that so-called barbarians were more than just unwashed savages and did have rich cultural traditions that are worth appreciating, we should take care not to overcorrect in the other direction. If you read Jack Weatherford's books you almost get this sense that Chinggis was this kind of enlightened, progressive philosopher king that just wanted all of his subjects to live in peace and harmony. The reality of the matter was that for all of their military prowess the Mongols, for various reasons, were simply not up to the task of actually governing any of the territories they ruled. Managing a complex economic and governmental system just was not their thing and their rule didn't last long anywhere, by the 1300s the empire had largely disintegrated and the Mongols were back living as nomads on the steppes almost as if the entire episode had never happened. Could this possibly have gone another way? Perhaps, but long term I don't really see any scenario where the Mongols retain control of China without becoming fully assimilated into Chinese culture just like every other steppe dynasty did. The fact that they were kicked out relatively quickly is probably the main reason they were still able to retain their ethnic identity to the present day, rather than simply vanishing from history like the Xiongnu, Xianbei, Khitan, Jurchen, or whoever.
Joined Feb 2015
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^Genghis Khan built a nation, they were not just some steppe confederation like the Xiongnu etc. And it appears to me you are talking about something completely different. Is this what you meant with „Killing the goose“? Is this a Chinese idiom or proverb? Sorry I wouldn‘t know then. And I have no particular interest in discussing this with you.
You are simply overthinking it. Its true I didn‘t know Mongols ate dogs and I was told Chinese would vehemently deny or minimize their eating of dogs. It was a western youtuber in China I heard from. If this is not true, then I apologize. And that „under the bus“ ... I just thought it was kind of funny thats all. No hard feelings, peace.
Joined Feb 2022
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^Genghis Khan built a nation, they were not just some steppe confederation like the Xiongnu etc. And it appears to me you are talking about something completely different. Is this what you meant with „Killing the goose“? Is this a Chinese idiom or proverb? Sorry I wouldn‘t know then. And I have no particular interest in discussing this with you.
You are simply overthinking it. Its true I didn‘t know Mongols ate dogs and I was told Chinese would vehemently deny or minimize their eating of dogs. It was a western youtuber in China I heard from. If this is not true, then I apologize. And that „under the bus“ ... I just thought it was kind of funny thats all. No hard feelings, peace.
It comes from one of Aesop's fables, the idea is that if you have a source of wealth you should nurture it so that it can continue to generate a steady stream of income for you in the long term, rather than getting too greedy and overexploiting it to the point where it can no longer produce anything. This is pertinent for most empires throughout history because if you treat conquered territory as simply a piggy bank from which to extract resources, rather than as an integral part of your nation that you take care to develop economically, then over time your subject peoples will no longer see any value in working their butts off just so to hand over all their earnings to you, and the previously rich nation you conquered is now an impoverished hellhole full of rebellious peasants. The Mongols never quite grasped this, which is why their empire was never going to last very long.
Joined Feb 2015
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I am not sure but you seem to be under the impression the Mongols were extracting the wealth of China and add it to Mongolia? I don‘t think that was the case as the people in Mongolia became largely distant from the Mongols in China at the end of the Yuan. The ruling Mongols were but a small minority in China and most Mongols simply stayed nomadic. The Yuan became basically a Chinese dynasty, a badly led mind you.
This is what wikipedia has to say about the Fall of Yuan:
„The final years of the Yuan dynasty were marked by struggle, famine, and bitterness among the populace. In time, Kublai Khan's successors lost all influence on other Mongol lands across Asia, while the Mongols beyond the Middle Kingdom saw them as too Chinese. Gradually, they lost influence in China as well. The reigns of the later Yuan emperors were short and marked by intrigues and rivalries. Uninterested in administration, they were separated from both the army and the populace, and China was torn by dissension and unrest. Outlaws ravaged the country without interference from the weakening Yuan armies.
From the late 1340s onwards, people in the countryside suffered from frequent natural disasters such as droughts, floods and the resulting famines, and the government's lack of effective policy led to a loss of popular support. In 1351, the Red Turban Rebellion led by Song loyalists started and grew into a nationwide uprising and the Song loyalists established a renewed Song dynasty in 1351 with its capital at Kaifeng. In 1354, when Toghtogha led a large army to crush the Red Turban rebels, Toghon Temür suddenly dismissed him for fear of betrayal. This resulted in Toghon Temür's restoration of power on the one hand and a rapid weakening of the central government on the other. He had no choice but to rely on local warlords' military power, and gradually lost his interest in politics and ceased to intervene in political struggles. He fled north to Shangdu from Khanbaliq (present-day Beijing) in 1368 after the approach of the forces of the Míng dynasty (1368–1644), founded by Zhu Yuanzhang in the south. Zhu Yuanzhang was a former Duke and commander in the army of the Red Turban Song dynasty and assumed power as Emperor after the death of the Red Turban Song Emperor Han Lin'er, who had tried to regain Khanbaliq, which eventually failed, and who died in Yingchang (located in present-day Inner Mongolia) two years later (1370). Yingchang was seized by the Ming shortly after his death. Some royal family members still live in Henan today.[106]
The Prince of Liang, Basalawarmi established a separate pocket of resistance to the Ming in Yunnan and Guizhou, but his forces were decisively defeated by the Ming in 1381. By 1387 the remaining Yuan forces in Manchuria under Naghachu had also surrendered to the Ming dynasty. The Yuan remnants retreated to Mongolia after the fall of Yingchang to the Ming in 1370, where the name Great Yuan (大元) was formally carried on, and is known as the Northern Yuan dynasty.[11]
This is what wikipedia has to say about the Fall of Yuan:
„The final years of the Yuan dynasty were marked by struggle, famine, and bitterness among the populace. In time, Kublai Khan's successors lost all influence on other Mongol lands across Asia, while the Mongols beyond the Middle Kingdom saw them as too Chinese. Gradually, they lost influence in China as well. The reigns of the later Yuan emperors were short and marked by intrigues and rivalries. Uninterested in administration, they were separated from both the army and the populace, and China was torn by dissension and unrest. Outlaws ravaged the country without interference from the weakening Yuan armies.
From the late 1340s onwards, people in the countryside suffered from frequent natural disasters such as droughts, floods and the resulting famines, and the government's lack of effective policy led to a loss of popular support. In 1351, the Red Turban Rebellion led by Song loyalists started and grew into a nationwide uprising and the Song loyalists established a renewed Song dynasty in 1351 with its capital at Kaifeng. In 1354, when Toghtogha led a large army to crush the Red Turban rebels, Toghon Temür suddenly dismissed him for fear of betrayal. This resulted in Toghon Temür's restoration of power on the one hand and a rapid weakening of the central government on the other. He had no choice but to rely on local warlords' military power, and gradually lost his interest in politics and ceased to intervene in political struggles. He fled north to Shangdu from Khanbaliq (present-day Beijing) in 1368 after the approach of the forces of the Míng dynasty (1368–1644), founded by Zhu Yuanzhang in the south. Zhu Yuanzhang was a former Duke and commander in the army of the Red Turban Song dynasty and assumed power as Emperor after the death of the Red Turban Song Emperor Han Lin'er, who had tried to regain Khanbaliq, which eventually failed, and who died in Yingchang (located in present-day Inner Mongolia) two years later (1370). Yingchang was seized by the Ming shortly after his death. Some royal family members still live in Henan today.[106]
The Prince of Liang, Basalawarmi established a separate pocket of resistance to the Ming in Yunnan and Guizhou, but his forces were decisively defeated by the Ming in 1381. By 1387 the remaining Yuan forces in Manchuria under Naghachu had also surrendered to the Ming dynasty. The Yuan remnants retreated to Mongolia after the fall of Yingchang to the Ming in 1370, where the name Great Yuan (大元) was formally carried on, and is known as the Northern Yuan dynasty.[11]
Can you elaborate on this? How was the bad govenance bad for China and good for Mongolia, or that good governance of China is good for China bad for Mongolia?
OR is this something else? What does this even mean?
Joined Feb 2015
7,536 Posts | 1,053+
Germany
Ariq and Khublai were having a rivalry. Khublai was „for China“ and Ariq „For Mongolia“. If Ariq had won, likely there wouldn‘t be a Yuan dynasty and Mongolia with Karakorum would have stayed as the main seat. Ariq was basically about completely exploiting and destroying China. But luckily I guess, he lost to Khublai. But arguably with Khublai, Mongolia became just a province.
Joined Feb 2022
2,575 Posts | 2,011+
Washington, DC
Mongolia proper remained under the control of the Yuan until the fall of the dynasty, and in fact a rump regime persisted there until the Qing conquest in the 17th century. Some of the western khanates did object to the Yuan adopting too many Chinese characteristics, though this was at least a part merely a pretext to assert their independence from Kublai and it would be rather rich for them to claim to be the "true Mongols" given that they were in the process of being assimilated by their own subject populations and indeed across most of these lands today there is virtually no trace that the Mongols were ever there, whereas Mongol culture is still thriving in China.
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