I can see that the info that you refer to is dated to 2011.
Dating showed late Bronze age and I can not find any hard dates from Beowulf times. Perhaps they simple believe that the fort was used extensively into the Viking age, which of course is not impossible.
Gådefuld borg stammer fra bronzealderen
Det er lykkedes en gruppe arkæologer at datere en gådefuld borg på Møn, som man tidligere har ment måtte være en middelalderborg. Det viser sig, at borgen er flere tusind år gammelvidenskab.dk
Skyggekortet as one layer can be found here
Kortviseren.dk
En kortportal med fokus på det danske landskabs topografi, kultur og historie, der samler en række åbne tjenster og offentlige arkiver.kortviseren.dk
Choose terrean skyggekort on the right menu. As you can see it shows the ground in incredible detail down to single rocks in the wood. Any old formations which is hard to detect otherwise often is visible in this layer. The flat area north of the fort shows not much. (We have the same type of map layer in Sweden and I guess you have it in England too).
Here is a clip
View attachment 28793
By the way, the whole forest was probably quite open in earlier times, indicated by the numerous Bronze age mounds which still can be found in the forest.
Many thanks for the links. Skyggekort is very useful. In the UK we call it LIDAR but we don't have full coverage of all the country so there are some annoying gaps.
Keith
Keith
Joined Aug 2011
2,002 Posts | 189+
Sweden
Yes the map layer can sometimes give unexpected results. I hope you had time to also visit other places in the wood.
But much is needed to replace Lejre with something similar.on Mön. Landscape history has shown that it was a type of Grendelland during Beowulf times, like overgrowing woods.
My thoughts on the location of Beowulf's barrow have now been added to the website, theroadtoheorot.com . But there isn't much evidence so it is speculative.
Keith
Keith
Joined Aug 2011
2,002 Posts | 189+
Sweden
Hi, it spells Årnäs in both locations. I checked the Årnäs location in Halland and it seems that the stone mounds are dated to the Bronze age. Not much soil to cover the stones in this rocky landscape. Not sure either if this part of Halland belonged to the Geats during Beowulf times.
Joined Aug 2011
2,002 Posts | 189+
Sweden
Bioluminescence was probably the real background for Beowulf's description of spooky fire in the water, when entering Grendel's abode. Here is a good example how it looks right now along the coast of California:
www.theguardian.com
Bioluminescent waves dazzle surfers in California: 'Never seen anything like it'
Crowds are coming to see the light show as beaches begin to reopen after an almost month-long closure due to coronavirus
Joined Aug 2011
2,002 Posts | 189+
Sweden
Another new programme (in Swedish) regarding the massacre at Sandby fort on Öland which took place around 480 AD. That is, some time before Beowulf's time. The experts now thinks this was a local conflict, where people from the other side of the island were the aggressors during turbulent times. Only a part of the fort has been excavated so far. It is also believed that some of the islanders took service as soldiers under Ricimer and Rome during it's final stage before breakdown at 476 and brought home gold coins from emperor Majorianus regime. The forts on Öland are very like for example the amphitheatre in Arles in form. Returning islanders probably built the local forts in the same oval fashion. After the massacre, it was left desolated for 1500 years, including a bad reputation in local memory. This proves that oral tradition can go back very far (reminding of the plus 1000 years of Grendel memory on Møn).
www.svtplay.se
Vetenskapens värld – Massakern i romarrikets skugga
Del 15 av 18: Massakern i romarrikets skugga. Det fanns en tid då nordiska legoknektar stred både för och emot kejsarna i Romarriket. Under marken i den gamla fornborgen på Öland ser forskarna spåren av en massaker. Unga som gamla har dödats utan urskiljning. Och ju djupare arkeologerna gräver i...
Joined Aug 2011
2,002 Posts | 189+
Sweden
A short film from the excavations at Grönån, which is located beside river Göta älv (Gautelf) i SW Sweden, 20 km north of Gothenburg (in Swedish). This was Geatish territory during Beowulf times. They found different wooden remains in the clay, such as wheels, ladders etc. And even more interesting, profile imprints of large boats in the clay! This area could have been the place from which Hygelac and Beowulf started their fatal journey the Frisian and Frankish lands around 520 AD. At the time, this was a bay of the sea.
Joined Nov 2008
2,795 Posts | 1,085+
England
Interesting find Starkodder. However, I have seen a reference and review to a book written by that important Swedish archaeologist Bo Graslund who believes the poem Beowulf originated on Gotland. The book is in Swedish, so it is regrettably inaccessible to me.
Beowulfkvädet | Kungl. Gustav Adolfs Akademien för svensk folkkultur (bokorder.se)
Are you familiar with the book?
Joined Aug 2011
2,002 Posts | 189+
Sweden
Last edited:
Yes, I have it. Bo Gräslund is a professor emeritus, and the book is quite an scientific effort with nearly 300 pages. It is impossible to review it in whole here, but in no way does he have a solid case, placing Beowulf and Hygelac on Gotland. Personally, the main objections to this is the distance between Gotland and Heorot and especially between Gotland and Frisia. He solves the problem with Heorot at Lejre by simple brushing it off in one sentence, even if he knows that there were large halls at Lejre during Beowulf times. Instead he place Heorot in SE Själland, only because it is closer to Gotland and because there is a famous Iron age stone road at Broskov nearby. Hygelac in Frisia is totally ignored. The important term “fyr on flode” he only interpret symbolically, when it instead certainly describes mareld (bioluminiscence), placing Grendels cave by the sea and not in a freshwater lake. Grendel and his mother are also interpreted as symbols of famine and starvation after the volcanic winter 536 AD. Too weak argument in my eyes.
As few translations of Beowulf exist in Sweden, Gräslund’s book certainly took some headlines. But in perspective, his interpretations are just everybody elses, which others have pointed out here in Sweden. Time will tell which one will hold its ground best. I have seen some rewiew in English.
More effort should be concentrated on the 50 year gap in Beowulf, why there is a gap and how Thidrekssaga can fill it. People from England and USA should go deeper into this, I have not found one single case except my own where Bitterwulf is compared with Beowulf or Bodvar Bjarki.
This looks an interesting discussion but 43 pages, going to take some time to go through to understand.
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2,002 Posts | 189+
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Another visit at Möns klint in Denmark, in summer temperatures despite September. This is the spot where I place Grendel and especially his ending, preserved for the world by the Anglosaxons in Beowulf. We still have the myrcan moor, the waterfall, tree roots overlooking the mere (the sea). The cave below the cliff at Fruerstuefald is lost in legends but will perhaps reappear some day. A lone man entering a cave to fight the devil is remembered locally.
But first the neighbouring island of Falster, where the dim character Grøn Jette slew seven opponents with his spear. Barrows at Nes village are a reminder of grusome events. This was a large forest in former times, today smaller but still called Østerskov. Combine this with the chapter in Thidrekssaga, where Ingram the outlaw with his followers killed 30 Saxon merchants in Falster forest. Then unopposed for years until they where defeated by Bitterwulf and his son Ditlev. The condensed version of 12 years of conflicts is presented in Beowulf.
Østerskov today is a modern forest with straight roads. But scattered around are mounds and stone monuments. In the middle of the forest there is a dolmen from the stone age, where remains from the iron age such as cheramics have been found. Perhaps a hideout for outlaws planning their next raid on road travelers?
Back to Möns klint. Finally I was able to locate the so called Klintekongens pengekiste (the treasure chest of the mountain king) by the side of the road leading out to the cliffs. Is is a small stone chest made of four cut stones to form a triangle. From the bronze age according to information. Travellers used to sacrifice coins to the mountain king here, entering his domain. I had to remove the leaves inside the chest to see, but if there were any coins left will be a secret…..
Finally, a beautiful sunset from Kongsbjerg (Kings’s hill). Below the hill in a deep hollow still lies a well, now buried under stones. A special place indeed.
But first the neighbouring island of Falster, where the dim character Grøn Jette slew seven opponents with his spear. Barrows at Nes village are a reminder of grusome events. This was a large forest in former times, today smaller but still called Østerskov. Combine this with the chapter in Thidrekssaga, where Ingram the outlaw with his followers killed 30 Saxon merchants in Falster forest. Then unopposed for years until they where defeated by Bitterwulf and his son Ditlev. The condensed version of 12 years of conflicts is presented in Beowulf.
Østerskov today is a modern forest with straight roads. But scattered around are mounds and stone monuments. In the middle of the forest there is a dolmen from the stone age, where remains from the iron age such as cheramics have been found. Perhaps a hideout for outlaws planning their next raid on road travelers?
Back to Möns klint. Finally I was able to locate the so called Klintekongens pengekiste (the treasure chest of the mountain king) by the side of the road leading out to the cliffs. Is is a small stone chest made of four cut stones to form a triangle. From the bronze age according to information. Travellers used to sacrifice coins to the mountain king here, entering his domain. I had to remove the leaves inside the chest to see, but if there were any coins left will be a secret…..
Finally, a beautiful sunset from Kongsbjerg (Kings’s hill). Below the hill in a deep hollow still lies a well, now buried under stones. A special place indeed.
Joined Aug 2011
2,002 Posts | 189+
Sweden
Skalunda hög (mound) is one of the largest i Sweden and situated in Västergötland near lake Vänern. It is one of those places where scholars have placed Beowulfs burial mound. Archaeologists have now begun to investigate the surroundings. Some new finds can been seen here:
Joined Aug 2011
2,002 Posts | 189+
Sweden
The bronze buckle has a preliminary dating 650-750 AD. According to the FB website
http://www.vastsvenskarkeologi.se/
they are now digging for traces of halls and buildings near Skjolms barrow, the second largest barrow at Skalunda.
Joined Nov 2008
2,795 Posts | 1,085+
England
Joined Nov 2008
2,795 Posts | 1,085+
England
I thought this might be of interest, Starkodder, if you are not aware of it. Nothing to do with Beowulf, but interesting all the same.
Isotopic provenancing of the Salme ship burials in Pre-Viking Age Estonia | Antiquity | Cambridge Core
Isotopic provenancing of the Salme ship burials in Pre-Viking Age Estonia | Antiquity | Cambridge Core
Joined Aug 2011
2,002 Posts | 189+
Sweden
Sorry wrong picture earlier. This is the one dated to 650-750 AD on FB. Two animals.
Joined Aug 2011
2,002 Posts | 189+
Sweden
Last edited:
Yes, but I have not read any news on the ships lately. A discussion regarding the ships on the Swedish archaeological forum has - not surprisingly - included Yngvar, the Yngling king who fell in Estonia around 600 AD, according to Snorri. Who knows, but as always, names of persons seems be rememberad far more accurately in oral tradition than events or chronology. In this case Snorri place him 100 years earlier than the dates indicates. It probably is Yngvar who is buried on the ship if you ask me. Another example is Hugleik, who Snorri included in the Yngling dynasti around 400 AD, although he lived 100 years later and belonged to the Geats. Interestingly, Snorri wrote that Haki and Hagbard was the ones who killed Hugleik. Perhaps those names is simply an alternative for the Hugas and Hetwars in Francia, who in reality was the slayers of historical Hygelac. But how did Snorri pick up information on Hugleik, who is NOT included in Ynglingatal?
Joined Aug 2011
2,002 Posts | 189+
Sweden
It is amazing what can be revealed from a public map layer, only last evening. This is perhaps a unknown hillfort, protected by steep slopes on one side and sunken walls on the other. And also a possible old well inside the formation. Province Scania, where hillforts are rare.
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