Did the Germans really have the best tanks? Were German Generals and tank crews really supermen but for Hitler?

Joined Nov 2018
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Wales
I'm sure I'm generalizing too much, but I believe the gearbox was the weak link in British designs. The Centurion with the US-built Continental engine and Alison gearbox was a vastly superior beast to the Meteor-engined Centurion, which was itself a leap forward in British designs.
Centurions with Continental engines and Allison gearboxes entered service 1970, so its not surprising its better than a 1941 production model.

The gearbox was a weak link in the M26 Pershing, and definitely the weak link in the KV-1's until the S version, the latter only capable of 125 kms before an overhaul was required. The A13 mk V, one of the very worst tanks of WW2, certainly had a poor gearbox, but this was one of extremely many faults. The A15 also had transmission problems, as did early 1942 Churchills. However, the Valentine was uber reliable, and since it used as many components from the A10 as possible, we can judge the latter to be reliable as well.

Later British designs used the Merritt-Brown Triple Differential System, which gave Churchills, Cromwells, Challengers and Comets unparalleled maneuverability and the ability to climb that was not matched by other designs until well into the Cold War.
 
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Wales
People used to write about the superior turret traverse of the M4 vs the Panther and Tiger...supposedly the M4's turret was electrically driven while the Panther's was manual/hydraulic and thus the M4 could often get off the first shot...if it was close enough. I haven't seen that mentioned.

As far as the mechanical reliability of German tanks. Were most British Tanks much better? How about the T34? FWIW I think Nicholas Moran commented that the Panther etc wasn't really that much worse than most other tanks, the Sherman excepted.

I am also fairly certainly that Allied tankers, including Red Army tankers, weren't making jokes and laughing when they encountered German tanks. It was likely quite the opposite. Some may have messed their pants. One needs to be careful about losing historical perspective.
The M4 had many different types of turret traverse systems. The best was the Oilgear system, found on the M4A3, although those with the 105mm, unfortunately, only had a manual traverse system. The turret traverse system on a particular model of M4, was why only Sherman 1, 4 and 5 models could take the 17pdr.

As far as British tanks were concerned, the MkVI, A9, A10, Valentines, Churchills (1943+), Cromwells, Challengers and Comets were extremely reliable. Covenantors, Churchills (41-42), Crusaders, Cavalier and Centaurs can be considered unreliable. A13 mk1's and 2's were reliable up to 900kms, but useless by 1000kms when so many faults had occurred, that they were not really worth fixing.

Based on a march by the 5th Guards Tank Army prior to Prokhorovka July 1943, Churchills were far more reliable than T-34's, but less so than T-70's, which had Valentine levels of reliability. T-34's seem to have about the same level of reliability as a Stug IIIG, based on that march information.
 
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Wales
What were the optics like on an IS2, and by comparison weren't german optics quite a bit better.
The Panthers gunners variable x3-6 scope was the one element that their 'Cuckoo', a captured Panther by the 6th Guards Tank Brigade, that was considered absolutely superior to their Churchills, and they used this Mk5 as an infantry platoon would use a sniper.

The IS-2 used the TSh-17 telescopic sight, with x4 magnification, and 16 degree angle of vision. The T-34/85 used the TSh-15 & 16 telescopic sights, with the same mag and angle of sight. Earlier T-34's and KV-1's used x2.5 mag with either 15 or 26 degree of vision depending if telescopic or periscopic. Early Soviet sights and vision blocks could be so poorly made, that sighting an enemy could be virtually impossible.


The Churchill had the best commanders cupola. The British ended up fitting it to all their tanks, including Shermans, when available. The Soviets thought it was the best element of the A22, when first received, and the US copied it post WW2 for their tanks.
 
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Joined Jul 2020
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The American 76mm high velocity varient of the Sherman wasn't deployed until after D-Day in France but may of been deployed earlier in Italy. The American 76mm was a bit less powerful but more accurate then the British 17pdr of the same 76.2mm caliper. On the other hand with the average rage of 250 meters practical accuracy was the same. Some dispute on how much frontal penetration vs the Panthers. American tanks supposedly only encountered Tigers three times in post D-Day. The 76mm varient performed well against Soviet made tanks in Korea thanks to more abundant APFDS rounds.
Leftyhunter
 
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Sydney
the Soviet 76 AT was used by the German on their Marden III ( mounted on a czeck chassis ) in spite of some issue of protection this proved to be a most welcome combination
 
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This documentary argued that T-34 and it's latter varient the T-34/85 was not the best tank of WWII but the most effective tank of WWII.
The Soviet's produced approximately 55k varients of the T-34 during WWII more then all German tanks combined. In 1941 when the T-34 made it's combat deput it arguably was the best tank in the world. The T-34 could easily destroy any German tank and was more reliable especially 8n winter to any tank the Germans had. Only the German 88mm gun could defeat the T-34 and KV 1 in 1941.
Eventually the German MkIV Special and various TDs such has the Maurader and StugIII could defeat the T-34 plus if course the Tigers and Panthers but quantity and reliability won out in Kursk.In January of 1944 the Soviets began mass production of the T-34/85 which at least per the documentary could penetrate the frontal armor of a Panther or Tiger at 1k metres. The Soviet's produced over 11k T-34/85s vs 6k Panthers and 1,300 Tiger I s and 496 Tiger IIs and of course many Tigers and Panthers were assigned to the Western Front so the Germans never had numerical parity.
Leftyhunter
 
Joined Aug 2021
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Italia
I don't know much about tanks but one thing is sure, the germans had the best looking tanks, the soviets had good looking tanks but i always found the sherman boring and with a bad design. If we're talking about tank's crews i think the germans had the best ( It depends on the period).
 
Joined Oct 2019
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Near the dogbowl
I don't know much about tanks but one thing is sure, the germans had the best looking tanks, the soviets had good looking tanks but i always found the sherman boring and with a bad design. If we're talking about tank's crews i think the germans had the best ( It depends on the period).
Ok if we're going there:
Here's my last, sort of in order. of coolest tanks in WW2 (well any tracked vehicle).

Soviet:
IS2
SU 100
SU 76 (its like the little engine that could)

German:
Hunting Panther
PZ III with long 50

British:
Comet
Matilda II (come on its just a cool looking tank)

Greater Texas:
Pershing (aka America's Freedom Cat)
M7 Priest
 
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Joined Oct 2013
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Europix
the germans had the best looking tanks, the soviets had good looking tanks but i always found the sherman boring and with a bad design

Tanks are a bit like women: in most cases it's not the good looking ones making a trustful lifetime soulmate ;)
 
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Joined Nov 2018
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Wales

This documentary argued that T-34 and it's latter varient the T-34/85 was not the best tank of WWII but the most effective tank of WWII.
The Soviet's produced approximately 55k varients of the T-34 during WWII more then all German tanks combined. In 1941 when the T-34 made it's combat deput it arguably was the best tank in the world. The T-34 could easily destroy any German tank and was more reliable especially 8n winter to any tank the Germans had. Only the German 88mm gun could defeat the T-34 and KV 1 in 1941.
Eventually the German MkIV Special and various TDs such has the Maurader and StugIII could defeat the T-34 plus if course the Tigers and Panthers but quantity and reliability won out in Kursk.In January of 1944 the Soviets began mass production of the T-34/85 which at least per the documentary could penetrate the frontal armor of a Panther or Tiger at 1k metres. The Soviet's produced over 11k T-34/85s vs 6k Panthers and 1,300 Tiger I s and 496 Tiger IIs and of course many Tigers and Panthers were assigned to the Western Front so the Germans never had numerical parity.
Leftyhunter

The Germans built 22050, the British 27019 and the US 88410 tanks from one source I have. Even if you remove the 191 light tanks, 127 Matilda 1's, 484 A24 Cavalier, 1728 A13 Covenantors and 3779 Crusader gun tanks, that still leaves 20710 tanks of decent to excellent levels of quality built during WW2. The US did not make a bad tank in WW2 at all.


Essentially, Britain, Canada and the USA built 5 times as many decent tanks, as the Germans made total tanks, which includes 2228 Pz1's and 1856 PzII's which lacked any type of AT ability. With T-34 production, we are talking around x8 more, and that does not include the T-70, KV-1's KV-2's, KV-85, IS-1 & IS-2. The Germans really needed quality to gain parity. The Tiger 1 did give them tactical superiority in 1943, where fielded, but was always in too few numbers. In 1943, the Panthers lack of reliability meant that it was more likely to be out of action than killing a T-34. You only need to look at Kursk to appreciate that fact. Even the Panther G still had final drive issues, and was too large and heavy for what it added to an army. Its sides were too weak, but worst of all, was the lack of vision sight for the crew, most were blind when the hatches were closed.

At the beginning of the war, many believe the Pz III was the best tank of the war. It was the preferred medium of the Heer, when they had their significant victories. It had reasonable armour, adequate gun, and decent mobility. On paper it looks okay enough, but it had a fatal flaw that probably cost Germany the war. It was unreliable. When Germany attacked Poland in 39, only 1 out of the 67 Pz III's that took part was still running after a month, half of those from breakdowns. The same breakdown rate was true for the first month of Barbarossa. The real 'crime' of the PzIII was that the apparent losses of this tank during the conquest of France definitely contributed to the infamous 'Halt' order, which allowed around a third of a million French and British troops to escape. The two Front war cost Hitler his planned empire.

The only really decent tanks that Germany made were the Pz II and Pz IV. The II was uber reliable, and effective, not when fighting, but outflanking, and pouring through gaps in the enemy line, and preventing enemy logistics being effective. They could also shoot up enemy artillery. They were still handy in 41, but completely outdated, even as a recon afv 42.
The Pz IV had adequate armour and mobility. A simpler design than the III, it always had two excellent points. The first was that it always had a decent gun, and both had a decent HE round, especially the earlier model with the howitzer. So useful was this gun, that it was fitted to all manner of other afv's, such as early Stug's, half tracks, armoured cars and even PZ III's when they realised it was no longer a useful battle tank. The second was that the IV had fantastic ergonomics for the crew.

No German tank was overall better than a Sherman, Cromwell or Churchill. The Germans did not have the best tanks.
 
Joined Jul 2020
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The Germans built 22050, the British 27019 and the US 88410 tanks from one source I have. Even if you remove the 191 light tanks, 127 Matilda 1's, 484 A24 Cavalier, 1728 A13 Covenantors and 3779 Crusader gun tanks, that still leaves 20710 tanks of decent to excellent levels of quality built during WW2. The US did not make a bad tank in WW2 at all.


Essentially, Britain, Canada and the USA built 5 times as many decent tanks, as the Germans made total tanks, which includes 2228 Pz1's and 1856 PzII's which lacked any type of AT ability. With T-34 production, we are talking around x8 more, and that does not include the T-70, KV-1's KV-2's, KV-85, IS-1 & IS-2. The Germans really needed quality to gain parity. The Tiger 1 did give them tactical superiority in 1943, where fielded, but was always in too few numbers. In 1943, the Panthers lack of reliability meant that it was more likely to be out of action than killing a T-34. You only need to look at Kursk to appreciate that fact. Even the Panther G still had final drive issues, and was too large and heavy for what it added to an army. Its sides were too weak, but worst of all, was the lack of vision sight for the crew, most were blind when the hatches were closed.

At the beginning of the war, many believe the Pz III was the best tank of the war. It was the preferred medium of the Heer, when they had their significant victories. It had reasonable armour, adequate gun, and decent mobility. On paper it looks okay enough, but it had a fatal flaw that probably cost Germany the war. It was unreliable. When Germany attacked Poland in 39, only 1 out of the 67 Pz III's that took part was still running after a month, half of those from breakdowns. The same breakdown rate was true for the first month of Barbarossa. The real 'crime' of the PzIII was that the apparent losses of this tank during the conquest of France definitely contributed to the infamous 'Halt' order, which allowed around a third of a million French and British troops to escape. The two Front war cost Hitler his planned empire.

The only really decent tanks that Germany made were the Pz II and Pz IV. The II was uber reliable, and effective, not when fighting, but outflanking, and pouring through gaps in the enemy line, and preventing enemy logistics being effective. They could also shoot up enemy artillery. They were still handy in 41, but completely outdated, even as a recon afv 42.
The Pz IV had adequate armour and mobility. A simpler design than the III, it always had two excellent points. The first was that it always had a decent gun, and both had a decent HE round, especially the earlier model with the howitzer. So useful was this gun, that it was fitted to all manner of other afv's, such as early Stug's, half tracks, armoured cars and even PZ III's when they realised it was no longer a useful battle tank. The second was that the IV had fantastic ergonomics for the crew.

No German tank was overall better than a Sherman, Cromwell or Churchill. The Germans did not have the best tanks.
Very good points. Ironically the PzIII was very useful and reliable at least as far as I can tell when used as the base model for the StugIII and Maruder.
Leftyhunter
 
Joined Aug 2021
15,042 Posts | 10,411+
Italia
Ok if we're going there:
Here's my last, sort of in order. of coolest tanks in WW2 (well any tracked vehicle).

Soviet:
IS2
SU 100
SU 76 (its like the little engine that could)

German:
Hunting Panther
PZ III with long 50

British:
Comet
Matilda II (come on its just a cool looking tank)

Greater Texas:
Pershing (aka America's Freedom Cat)
M7 Priest
Oh the SU 76 and the IS2 are really cool
 
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Joined Jul 2020
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Culver City , Ca
I don't know much about tanks but one thing is sure, the germans had the best looking tanks, the soviets had good looking tanks but i always found the sherman boring and with a bad design. If we're talking about tank's crews i think the germans had the best ( It depends on the period).
The Sherman was an excellent design has it was very reliable. The Sherman performed all it's roles well and was used for decades after WWII. The Sherman had a two to one kill ratio in Korea against Soviet made tanks and was the only US tank that served during the entirety of the Korean War. The Sherman tank modified by the Israelis served until 1980 and killed Soviet made T-55 and T-62 tanks. The Sherman served even afterwards in Southern Lebanon and the Balkan Wars.
Leftyhunter
 
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Joined Aug 2021
15,042 Posts | 10,411+
Italia
The Sherman was an excellent design has it was very reliable. The Sherman performed all it's roles well and was used for decades after WWII. The Sherman had a two to one kill ratio in Korea against Soviet made tanks and was the only US tank that served during the entirety of the Korean War. The Sherman tank modified by the Israelis served until 1980 and killed Soviet made T-55 and T-62 tanks. The Sherman served even afterwards in Southern Lebanon and the Balkan Wars.
Leftyhunter
Yes i know it was a very good tank. I only think that it is a bad looking tank, in my opinion
 
Joined Nov 2018
2,547 Posts | 1,884+
Wales
Very good points. Ironically the PzIII was very useful and reliable at least as far as I can tell when used as the base model for the StugIII and Maruder.
Leftyhunter
The Stug IIIG was reliable, and an excellent TD for the Germans, but obviously a further development in mechanical terms. I probably need to buy a decent book dedicated to the Stug only.

Maruder?
 
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