Did the Trojan War really happen?

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Aleksandu was the king of Mysia in the reign of Muvattalis 1315-1282 BC.

Wilusa is the Hittite name for Mysia which has nothing to do with Troy which was part of Dardania.
Wilu was the town or city rendered in Greek as Ilion, from which derived Iliad (the story of Ilion). The sa part of Wilu-sa was just an ending in Luwian or Hittite meaning place, town etc. Similarly for Hattu-sa, Ne-sa etc.

Tarui was Troy. Full name Tarui-sa. Wilu and Tarui (Ilion and Troy) were like originally twin settlements in close proximity that gradually merged and blended into each other as they grew and expanded. That was why their names later became virtually interchangeable among some writers.

At least that is the way I have read and understood it.
Wilusa was considered to be an independent city state and its kings were on the same level as the Hittites kings. In the "Muwatalli Treaty", Appolon is the God of Wilusa. His name was clumsily rendered by Apaliuna in Hittite.
Why are you assuming 'clumsily rendered in Hittite'?

Hittite was the older and native language. More like it was Greeks who Grecianised the original Hittite Apaliuna to Appolon or Appolo, I believe. That said, I could also be wrong about it.
 
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That's not what I said, man. Replace provincial general with Wilusa and Rome with Muwattali to see what I mean. If Wilusa was a vassal it would do what vassals do, it would have been like a provincial general (Wilusa) promising loyalty to Rome. (Muwattali)
Oh, okay dude. You were speaking metaphorically then. Sorry, I missed and misunderstood that at first.
 
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Wilu was the town rendered in Greek as Ilium, from which derived Iliad (the story of Ilium). The sa part of Wilu-sa was just an ending in Luwian or Hittite meaning place, town etc. Similarly for Hattu-sa, Ne-sa etc.

Why are you assuming 'clumsily rendered in Hittite'?

Hittite was the older and native language. It was Greek that Grecianised the original Hittite Apaliuna to Appolon or Appolo.

Because we have historical records that show where the Gods came from, where they were born and where their tombs lay. Because their etymology is Greek and mean nothing in Hittite.

The Hittites are not older than the Greeks.

They couldn't even invent a script of their own so had to use cuneiform. The Greeks had Linear A since 1800 BC and the evidence for its development dates back to 2000 BC.

The Greeks invented the arch, the dome and iron smelting in 1700 BC when the Hittites were building with mud.

Hittites were ruled over by Greek kings for most of their history. The kings of the Hittite were not necessarily of the same race as the people.

Suppiluliumas II ruled from 1200-1190 BC and he was Greek. He was Priam/Podakes.
Suppiluliama is the closest that non-Indo-European Akkadian cuneiform can get to spelling the Greek/Indo-European Zeus-Priamo(s) which in Linear B is Sa-A-Si-Pa-Ri/Li-A-Ma-(s). If you refer to the Iliad Zeus was supposed to be on the side of the Trojans because Homer interchanged Priam with Zeus since Zeus was his epithet. Hittite records say that Priam reigned for 20 years. In 1193 BC Priam lost control over the Hittites since the Greeks surrounded him in the city of Troy.

Nearly 50 years before Priam, Deukalion the son of Minos made himself king of the Hittites under the name of Tudhaliya IV/Dionysus from 1252 to 1236 BC. Minos had several son who had made themselves kings of cities in Asia-Minor at this time who were killed by Herakles on his 9th labour, Eurymedon, Chryses, Nephalion, and Philolaus.

Why do you think the Greeks never mentioned the Hittites in any of their Historical texts. Its because the Hittites were insignificant vassals of the Greeks. Hittite records show the called the ruler of the Greeks the Great King which was the same title reserved for Cyrus and Darius. Oh and the title of Great King is Aga-Memnon ! The Hittite civilisation collapsed totally at the time that Troy is captured.

The Hittites were known to the Greeks by the name of Assyrians since to all intents an purposes the were either ruled by the Assyrians or ruling the
 Assyrians. The bible calls the Hittites the Nations. In other words the Hittites were a combination of races.
 
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Suppiluliumas II ruled from 1200-1190 BC and he was Greek. He was Priam/Podakes.

Suppiluliama is the closest that non-Indo-European Akkadian cuneiform can get to spelling the Greek/Indo-European Zeus-Priamo(s) which in Linear B is Sa-A-Si-Pa-Ri/Li-A-Ma-(s).
Umm, I don't know.

Rather, OTOH, I would be kind of more inclined to consider the Priam = Piyama Radu connection as a bit more believable rather than that linguistics gymnastics based (at least to me) Zeus Priamos = Suppiluliumas hypothesis.

And wrt Trojan War we're only talking about Suppiluliuma I.

While then also, there was also Suppiluliuma I, who was reigning over the same Hattusa empire about couple centuries before the mainstream timeframe postulated for Trojan War. Who to me could not have been Zeus Priamos.
 
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Still havent read the paper (apologies, i will) but one interresting note is that according to norse spesialist Jackson Crawford, the runes decends from the greek and not latin alphabet. The nordic-greek connection seems to be long lasting
 
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The evidence shows that a Trojan war or wars occurred, but doesn’t support that the Trojan war happened.

We know where Ilios/Troy of the Iliad is located, we know it prospered, we know it had great walls (the Greeks visited them as a tourist attraction), and we know it was destroyed (multiple times, including in the late Bronze Age, although, after the fall of the Mycenaeans). We have contemporary records from the Hittites speaking of a Piyama-Radu (identified with Priam) who made an alliance with Ahhiyawa (identified with the Achaeans), Wilusa/Taruisa (identified with Ilios/Troy).

I think the evidence is still a little hazy to determine exactly what happened, but we have evidence to piece some of it together and create theories to explain the evidence. There’s enough evidence to suggest the Trojan war of Homer probably didn’t happen. There is room for many different hypotheticals though, I think the historical possibilities make for an interesting topic.

Edit: only fixed a spelling mistake which I caught when reading Dreamhunter’s response.
 
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Joined Jun 2012
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We have contemporary records from the Hittites speaking of a Piyama-Radi (identified with Priam) who made an alliance with Ahhiyawa (identified with the Achaeans), Wilusa/Taruisa (identified with Ilios/Troy).
My favoured angle.

Yep, Piyama-Radu would have been my archetype for Priam. As some scholars have proposed.

And Wilusa & Taruisa were Ilion & Troy, them twin cities that gradually grew and merged and blended into each other.
 
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There’s enough evidence to suggest the Trojan war of Homer probably didn’t happen.
Likely not. Nope. Definitely not the way he has written it.

Too slick, too smooth, too polished, too artificial sounding, even too comprehensive and detailed to me, for it to have been a genuine authentic account.
 
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Joined Aug 2014
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Any thoughts on the baltic theory, described here.
View attachment 67769

map.jpg


 
Joined Jun 2022
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map.jpg


Personally I have no clue, just read a line online and the amount of Lines on a map intruiged me. So i asked here.

(Just to clarify that im not on some nordic aliens agenda)
 
Joined Aug 2014
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Personally I have no clue, just read a line online and the amount of Lines on a map intruiged me. So i asked here.

(Just to clarify that im not on some nordic aliens agenda)
The other part of the Baltic theory hinges on the storms mentioned in the Iliad. The problem with this is that the only storms in the Iliad are literary similes, not weather events. The events in the book only cover the week surrounding the death of Patroklos, which was a month or two before the fall of Troy. On day 1 there is a cool north wind (5.697-698). The following four days are hot and calm (10.570-575, 11.621-622, 11.642, 11.811-812). On the sixth day the wind comes from the northwest (23.194-195). No storms, no rain, no cold weather.
 
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Here is an academic paper which I believe will interest you. Obviously because it is an academic paper it needs to be studied carefully. I found it very interesting as I believe you will also..

I have now read it, thank you once again. I like this more holistic view of history, where cultures interact and influence each other and people and materials travels far and wide. We are, to often in my opinion, presented a very fragmented view of the past (and even more so the further north in Europe you go, in my opinion), so it was nice reading an article witch mentions both its uniqeuness as well as its strong relationship to a wider, european culture/network, even to the point of scandinavian and british bronze work being practically identical. And also, not viewing the little pond as a barrier, but a high way. That it was a long established ocean going culture way back (even the earliest hunther gatherers), I was aware of, but that we see a more marked social hierachy as well as a warrior culture starting in the Bronze age was interresting. I wonder if that distinction arrived with the steppe people, and If they lived separtley to the HGs for a long period.
 
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Joined Jan 2015
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I think the theories about Troy being in northern Europe are fundamentally based on an issue of perspective.

I debated with someone about this once, and it seemed that the major pieces of evidence that he provided were the fact that Homer referred to lush vegetation on a number of occasions. From the perspective of someone who lives in Europe, perhaps it’s true that Turkey doesn’t have much lush vegetation.

However, this fundamentally ignores the fact that the relatively limited vegetation that Turkey may have (although I also disagree with this claim in itself) would have seemed lush to someone who had never known anything better. Thus, from the perspective of a writer who lived in that area, the descriptions would not have been out of place at all.
 

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