Early Modern Era Military Leaders Draft Game [2022 meet]

Lord Oda Nobunaga · Oct 2, 2022

Yeah I think that Cordoba is more of a legacy general. He did well with the army that he organized against the French in 1504. It was a revolutionary moment.

Would he have continued to perform that well later in say the 1520's like at Pavia? Was he ever surpassed by those generals that took to the field much later (like the generals of the Italian Wars in the 1510s, 1520s, 1530s, 1540s, and 1550s)?

Personally as much as I like Gonzalo de Cordoba I don't think he was a match for Alessandro Farnese in the 1580's and 1590's. Notice that Maurice had close to a good decade in the field, but coincidentally that was somehow also the decade that Alessandro Farnese had died.

Philly · Oct 2, 2022

Lord Oda Nobunaga said:
I don't know who Koniecpolski is. But I am surprised by how many generals were not picked yet.

I honestly don't know if I would put Gonzalo de Cordoba over Oda Nobunaga. I mean Gonzalo had a short career compared to Nobunaga.

I think that we can assume Candy is going with Babur???

Koniecpolski is mostly famous for defeating Gustav Adolphus during his invasion of Poland, even though Poland lost the war. He also put down a few Cossack rebellions, ann repulsed Tatar raids and defeated the Ottomans.

Cordoba was revolutionary in the development of firearms. He essentially did what Oda did with them in Japan, except Cordoba was one of the first ones to do it ever. Cerignola saw Spanish firearms usage at 25% of their army, it was essentially replay of Agincourt, except with Firearms, instead of the longbow, destroying the repeated French cavalry charges. When he landed in Naples, his army was no match for the French. He modernized the Spanish Army to a professional force, that would result in Spain becoming the dominant power for over a century. Not to mention his leading role in Grenada war, and the completion of the Reconquista.

Its really up to your own metrics and criteria. With Oda, you have a more voluminous career and his his role as a military pioneer, where as Cordoba is one of the most important military innovators in history, though having a dense career himself, really focuses on a singular battlefield masterpiece. For what its worth, Cordoba's conquest of Naples and role in Grenada probably compare quiet closely to the size of Oda's conquered territory.

Philly · Oct 2, 2022

Lord Oda Nobunaga said:
Yeah I think that Cordoba is more of a legacy general. He did well with the army that he organized against the French in 1504. It was a revolutionary moment.

Would he have continued to perform that well later in say the 1520's like at Pavia? Was he ever surpassed by those generals that took to the field much later (like the generals of the Italian Wars in the 1510s, 1520s, 1530s, 1540s, and 1550s)?

Personally as much as I like Gonzalo de Cordoba I don't think he was a match for Alessandro Farnese in the 1580's and 1590's. Notice that Maurice had close to a good decade in the field, but coincidentally that was somehow also the decade that Alessandro Farnese had died.

I wouldnt put any of the other Italian war in the same class as Cordoba, save for another Spaniard who appears on the backend of the conflict, but is more known for his role in the Dutch rebellion. Still, I'd probably rate him a bit below both Captain's of the Spanish Flag already selected. You latter comment is good point. Generals who faced head on with other great captains. We already have a pair selected, Konicpolski vs Gustavus and Farnese vs Maurice. Though its important to keep in mind, that not all things are equal when these generals meet head on, but still its nice to have on your resume that you bested your best contemporary. Oda and Turenne should both have a handful of bested foes selected in the rounds ahead.

Lord Oda Nobunaga · Oct 2, 2022

I certainly would give Gonzalo de Cordoba much credit for Cerignola and Garigliano and that whole 1503/04 campaign in Naples. His tactics are Cerignola decimated the French army. His organization of the existing pike phalanx and utilizing integrated fire arms units (which as you said was up to 25% of the army), as well as limiting his cavalry to effectively just medium and heavy cavalry, cutting down on heavily armored feudal knights. So he not only made use of distinct tactics, and unit/army organization, but also improved the existing Spanish army of trained enlistees, further reducing feudal formations. That is really the definition of the era... Giving feudalism the boot.

But that being said I would not give Gonzalo credit for conquering Granada. That was more the work of someone else who is vastly underrated. Gonzalo may have been a military genius but he was not the one pulling the strings. His first real stint in command of an army was in 1495 in Naples and it was a big defeat. But he got lucky in that political circumstances forced the French to withdraw.

Lord Oda Nobunaga · Oct 2, 2022

Actually interesting that you bring up Turenne. Both he and Gonzalo stood out to me because they were great generals. Truly intellectuals of military affairs. Both of them were respected by their great monarchs but never completely trusted.

They got the shaft more times than one. At the very least got shifted around due to bureaucracy. They had no power politically and in both cases had an older brother who had an important rank. For instance Gonzalo temporarily held command against rebels in Granada but was switched for his brother, while Gonzalo was sent to Naples and saw action at Cephalonia against the Turks.

I am wondering if Gonzalo still had more campaigns in him, as he was removed as Viceroy of Naples in 1507 since he was no longer trusted, and died in 1515, around the time of Marignano. He may have been able to see action in that Fourth Italian War (1508-1516) but I am unsure as he was 62 in that year.

DiocletianIsBetterThanYou · Oct 2, 2022

Lord Oda Nobunaga said:
I don't know who Koniecpolski is. But I am surprised by how many generals were not picked yet.

I honestly don't know if I would put Gonzalo de Cordoba over Oda Nobunaga. I mean Gonzalo had a short career compared to Nobunaga.

I think that we can assume Candy is going with Babur???

Almost certainly it will be Babur. I have an idea who the other guy will be.

DiocletianIsBetterThanYou · Oct 2, 2022

Also, yes, I'm spectating! Looking to learn some things.

Lord Oda Nobunaga · Oct 2, 2022

I think I know what the second one will be.

Emil · Oct 2, 2022

nuclearguy165 said:
I picked Vauban. Can somebody fix the chart?

Now this is a surprise

candy321wolf · Oct 3, 2022

Zahir al-Din Muhammad Babur Padishah Ghazi

candy321wolf · Oct 3, 2022

And my second pick is Aurangzeb Alamgir !!!

candy321wolf · Oct 3, 2022

TEAM MANAGER	1	2
macon	Eugene of Savoy
Philly	Henri de La Tour d'Auvergne, vicomte de Turenne
Mangekyou	Gustavus Adolphus
Willempie	Maurice of Orange
AlpinLuke	Jean de Valette
Emil	Alessandro Farnese, duke of Parma
Pima	Oda Nobunaga
Tiberius Caesar	Fernando d'Avalos
Lord Oda Nobunaga	Selim Yavuz
CommonSwindler	Gonzalo Fernández de Córdoba, El Gran Capitán
Kotromanic	Stanislaw Koniecpolski
delta1	Yi Sun-sin
@nuclearguy165	Vauban
candy321wolf	Babur	Aurangzeb Alamgir

Lord Oda Nobunaga · Oct 3, 2022

Guess I didn't know what the second pick would be. Well no that was my second guess but not my original guess.

I have been deputized to give nuke Murad II.

@delta1

Kotromanic · Oct 3, 2022

.

TEAM MANAGER	1	2
macon	Eugene of Savoy
Philly	Henri de La Tour d'Auvergne, vicomte de Turenne
Mangekyou	Gustavus Adolphus
Willempie	Maurice of Orange
AlpinLuke	Jean de Valette
Emil	Alessandro Farnese, duke of Parma
Pima	Oda Nobunaga
Tiberius Caesar	Fernando d'Avalos
Lord Oda Nobunaga	Selim Yavuz
CommonSwindler	Gonzalo Fernández de Córdoba, El Gran Capitán
Kotromanic	Stanislaw Koniecpolski
@delta1	Yi Sun-sin
nuclearguy165	Vauban	Murad II
candy321wolf	Babur	Aurangzeb Alamgir

“No one is better omened than he

Kotromanic · Oct 3, 2022

Lord Oda Nobunaga said:
Guess I didn't know what the second pick would be. Well no that was my second guess but not my original guess.

I have been deputized to give nuke Murad II.

@delta1

But you won't operate the table !!

Delta will hopefully see this early in the morning... Peace, going to try to get shut eye...

Lord Oda Nobunaga · Oct 3, 2022

Can't, I badly need to go to bed for tomorrow.

Lord Oda Nobunaga · Oct 3, 2022

Lord Oda Nobunaga said:
I certainly would give Gonzalo de Cordoba much credit for Cerignola and Garigliano and that whole 1503/04 campaign in Naples. His tactics are Cerignola decimated the French army. His organization of the existing pike phalanx and utilizing integrated fire arms units (which as you said was up to 25% of the army), as well as limiting his cavalry to effectively just medium and heavy cavalry, cutting down on heavily armored feudal knights. So he not only made use of distinct tactics, and unit/army organization, but also improved the existing Spanish army of trained enlistees, further reducing feudal formations. That is really the definition of the era... Giving feudalism the boot.

But that being said I would not give Gonzalo credit for conquering Granada. That was more the work of someone else who is vastly underrated. Gonzalo may have been a military genius but he was not the one pulling the strings. His first real stint in command of an army was in 1495 in Naples and it was a big defeat. But he got lucky in that political circumstances forced the French to withdraw.

*Limited his cavalry forces to light cavalry and medium cavalry. Also limiting the number of cavalry troops in his army in general, in favor of drilled infantrymen.

Lord Oda Nobunaga · Oct 3, 2022

Lord Oda Nobunaga said:
Actually interesting that you bring up Turenne. Both he and Gonzalo stood out to me because they were great generals. Truly intellectuals of military affairs. Both of them were respected by their great monarchs but never completely trusted.

They got the shaft more times than one. At the very least got shifted around due to bureaucracy. They had no power politically and in both cases had an older brother who had an important rank. For instance Gonzalo temporarily held command against rebels in Granada but was switched for his brother, while Gonzalo was sent to Naples and saw action at Cephalonia against the Turks.

I am wondering if Gonzalo still had more campaigns in him, as he was removed as Viceroy of Naples in 1507 since he was no longer trusted, and died in 1515, around the time of Marignano. He may have been able to see action in that Fourth Italian War (1508-1516) but I am unsure as he was 62 in that year.

*He was 62 when he died in 1515. Would have been like 54 when the Fourth Italian War in Milan started.

Okay good night.

Emil · Oct 3, 2022

Lord Oda Nobunaga said:
Guess I didn't know what the second pick would be. Well no that was my second guess but not my original guess.

I have been deputized to give nuke Murad II.

@delta1

Noooooooo

delta1 · Oct 3, 2022

TEAM MANAGER	1	2
macon	Eugene of Savoy
Philly	Henri de La Tour d'Auvergne, vicomte de Turenne
Mangekyou	Gustavus Adolphus
Willempie	Maurice of Orange
AlpinLuke	Jean de Valette
Emil	Alessandro Farnese, duke of Parma
Pima	Oda Nobunaga
Tiberius Caesar	Fernando d'Avalos
Lord Oda Nobunaga	Selim Yavuz
CommonSwindler	Gonzalo Fernández de Córdoba, El Gran Capitán
@Kotromanic	Stanislaw Koniecpolski
delta1	Yi Sun-sin	Jan Zizka
nuclearguy165	Vauban	Murad II
candy321wolf	Babur	Aurangzeb Alamgir

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Early Modern Era Military Leaders Draft Game [2022 meet]

Lord Oda Nobunaga

Philly

Philly

Lord Oda Nobunaga

Lord Oda Nobunaga

DiocletianIsBetterThanYou

DiocletianIsBetterThanYou

Lord Oda Nobunaga

Emil

candy321wolf

candy321wolf

candy321wolf

Lord Oda Nobunaga

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Kotromanic

Lord Oda Nobunaga

Lord Oda Nobunaga

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Emil

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