Economy of Third Reich was a socialist economy

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What activities were technical in violation of the law?
Trading with the enemy would be a technical violation of the law. Giving aid and comfort to the enemy would be a violation of the law.

There was a partnership formed ca 1929 between Standard Oil (that's Rockefeller) and IG Farben. Through this partnership, Germany was able to obtain petroleum and rubber products they could to get on their own. Specifically, high-performance aircraft need special gas to fly right, (and tires to takeoff and land).

From an IG Memo
"Americans were ahead of us in their knowledge of the quality requirements that are called for by the different uses of motor fuels. In particular they had developed, at great expense, a large number of methods of testing gasoline for different uses. On the basis of their experiments they had recognized the good anti, knock quality of iso-octane long before they had any knowledge of our hydrogenation process. This is proved by the single fact that in America fuels are graded in octane numbers, and iso-octane was entered as the best fuel with the number 100. All this knowledge naturally became ours as a result of the agreement, which saved us much effort and protected us against many errors"

These things were noticed.
Commercial Attaché, U.S. Embassy in Berlin 1933 to State Department in Washington, D.C,)
"In two gears Germany will be manufacturing oil and gas enough out of soft coal for a long war. The Standard Oil of New York is furnishing millions of dollars to help."​
I have no quotes, only reports that some were calling these partnerships treason when the war rolled around.

In addition to contemporaneous State Department records. there were post war Congressional Commission that unearthed what had been going on, like the Kilgore Committee
"...when the Nazis came to power in 1933, they found that long strides had been made since 1918 in preparing Germany for war from an economic and industrial point of view."
and
that Standard Oil with regard to the rubber "...seriously imperiled the war preparations of the United States."
 
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@PaulRycler early Nazi proposals were very similair to early fascist proposals before they came to power or later fascist program in Salo republic when they returned to their leftist and socialist roots. I checked the study which you provided but it fails to recognize many important facts so it errs also in many conclusions. What Strasser was advocating for that profits in factories should be divided 51/49 between owners and workers and that the state and workers together would have more power in factories than owners is pretty close to the law of socialisation of factories which was written by republican Italian fascists in 1944. And that is of course socialism. State controls economy and owners are subordinated to this control like for the benefit of society.

Study claims that in Germany corporativism was abandoned in 1936 so the conclusion is that private bussiness was able to maintain its economic freedom. But in 1936 economic freedom of private bussiness was broken by the state which started to set up prices and wages, before you had big inflation because of big public spendings.

As i said before fascists had to make a deal with Italian monarchy to gain power. Corporativism in Italy was born out of this deal. Its nature was like to make the capitalist system function at top capacity, using the device of state-created purchasing power through government debt, and the direct planning and control of the economic society. With militarism and imperialism imbedded in the system as an inextricable device for employing a great mass of the people. That means that free market was of course destroyed. Cartels were encouraged by the state.

Your study is admitting that capitalism in Italy and in Germany was transformed and it was different from classical one with state having a big role in it. But i did not see what this transformation included, going deeper in it. In Germany prices and wages were set by state, production was regulated by the state and they implemented rationing of the goods, farmland could not be sold, interest rates were set by state. So this transormation of capitalism in fact meant that owners were not able to manage their property anymore, but rather their property was controled and managed by state like for the benefit of society... and that is socialist economy.

Anonymous Profesor and Pugsville,

that's the difficulty with the definition of Socialism and also with that of Corporatism. There are so many shades of it that one can discuss about them till "Saint Juttemis" ( they translate by "until the cows come home")

Kind regards, Paul.
 
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Let me help you out. By electronic word search, I find a lot more for you. I get about 600 uses of any of four forms of the word.

But so what? You are not even trying to make your case how this is what makes the Nazi's rise to power.

What makes it part of the Nazi rise to power is the fact that up until the passing of the Enabling Act and then the death of Hindenburg, the Weimar Republic was a functioning democracy. There had been groups that had been eroding the elements that protected it even before the Nazis came to power, but elections were still had and relatively open. This meant that by 1929-1933 Germany was STILL a democracy and as a functioning democracy, what becomes point that proves the rise to power is what is often measured by what is frequently stated...

And for the Nazi Party, this related to their hatred of the Jews. It's what Hitler mentions in "Mein Kampf," it's what Nazi propaganda tries to sell, and they connected it to everything. Even their economic policies included that sort of message with the Jews being behind both the Capitalists in the West and the Marxists in the East. And thus as a democracy prior to the Enabling Act, it is logical to assume that what the Nazis say and rant about the most... their hatred of the Jews and rampant German nationalism would be what brings them to power. Because that was the only thing that really differentiated the Nazis from the German Communists, which was also growing in support from 1929-1933.
 
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Trading with the enemy would be a technical violation of the law. Giving aid and comfort to the enemy would be a violation of the law.

There was a partnership formed ca 1929 between Standard Oil (that's Rockefeller) and IG Farben. Through this partnership, Germany was able to obtain petroleum and rubber products they could to get on their own. Specifically, high-performance aircraft need special gas to fly right, (and tires to takeoff and land).

From an IG Memo
"Americans were ahead of us in their knowledge of the quality requirements that are called for by the different uses of motor fuels. In particular they had developed, at great expense, a large number of methods of testing gasoline for different uses. On the basis of their experiments they had recognized the good anti, knock quality of iso-octane long before they had any knowledge of our hydrogenation process. This is proved by the single fact that in America fuels are graded in octane numbers, and iso-octane was entered as the best fuel with the number 100. All this knowledge naturally became ours as a result of the agreement, which saved us much effort and protected us against many errors"

These things were noticed.
Commercial Attaché, U.S. Embassy in Berlin 1933 to State Department in Washington, D.C,)
"In two gears Germany will be manufacturing oil and gas enough out of soft coal for a long war. The Standard Oil of New York is furnishing millions of dollars to help."​
I have no quotes, only reports that some were calling these partnerships treason when the war rolled around.

In addition to contemporaneous State Department records. there were post war Congressional Commission that unearthed what had been going on, like the Kilgore Committee
"...when the Nazis came to power in 1933, they found that long strides had been made since 1918 in preparing Germany for war from an economic and industrial point of view."
and
that Standard Oil with regard to the rubber "...seriously imperiled the war preparations of the United States."

Whats the sources if you quote things coul dyou please , soucre title , pagenumber. Quotes without source are less than usefull.

None of the quotes are for anything during the war. Germans purchasing stuff pre war is perfectly legal is it not.

The germans used lower octane fuel than the 100 octane Allies through the war, The niher octance fuels gave the British an advnatge through the Battle of Britian and the rest of the war.
 
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What makes it part of the Nazi rise to power is the fact that up until the passing of the Enabling Act and then the death of Hindenburg, the Weimar Republic was a functioning democracy. There had been groups that had been eroding the elements that protected it even before the Nazis came to power, but elections were still had and relatively open. This meant that by 1929-1933 Germany was STILL a democracy and as a functioning democracy, what becomes point that proves the rise to power is what is often measured by what is frequently stated...

And for the Nazi Party, this related to their hatred of the Jews. It's what Hitler mentions in "Mein Kampf," it's what Nazi propaganda tries to sell, and they connected it to everything. Even their economic policies included that sort of message with the Jews being behind both the Capitalists in the West and the Marxists in the East. And thus as a democracy prior to the Enabling Act, it is logical to assume that what the Nazis say and rant about the most... their hatred of the Jews and rampant German nationalism would be what brings them to power. Because that was the only thing that really differentiated the Nazis from the German Communists, which was also growing in support from 1929-1933.

Functioning Democracy in what way? Rule by emergency decree had becoem standard and parliament mostly sidelined.
 
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First, I think the onion has a lot more layers than you do. Second, German people could not stop just stop Hitler any more than the Soviets could just stop Stalin or the Chinese could just stop Mao, the Ugandans could just stop Amin. The neighbors were not casually looking the other way. They were studiously monitoring everything.

And then did nothing... or voted for Hitler. In 1933, German elections were still relatively free. People could have voted for the Catholic Center Party rather than the Nazis. They could have voted for the Social Democrats rather than the Nazis.

And after 1933... while things would gradually get more and more difficult to protest, if the German people saw the things the Nazis did as problematic or wrong, they could have as a group done more to block what the Nazis did. Stand up in clear opposition. For while the Nazis would put in place the instruments of power that are common to every authoritarian regime... they didn't have the manpower to do it if EVERYONE that opposed them stood up at once. Their economy would crash if everyone was in a Concentration Camp or dead. And even as the Nazi government moved on... the failures of groups like the SS and Gestapo to prevent acts of resistance when they did occur became more and more apparent. These agencies were sold as preventing attacks or sabotage, and in the end they really didn't. In 1939 a lone man placed a bomb where Hitler was to give a speech, the only thing that saved Hitler's life was that he left early. It was only AFTER the bomb went off that the Gestapo was able to track the assassin down. In 1944 a German colonel placed a bomb in a briefcase under the desk in which Hitler was discussing affairs and left the room... in an area that as kept under "tight" security. The only thing that saved Hitler's life was that the bomb was moved to the other side of a large table leg. The Gestapo would get its revenge... but again failed to prevent and protect Hitler from attack...

As such, I'd find it likely that had the Germans as a whole stood up against Hitler, Hitler would have had to back down because there weren't enough Nazis, particularly early on, to just do as they wished.

Don't you ask yourself why didn't FDR stop IBM?

For what reason? Many in America and the rest of the world thought that Hitler would mellow as he governed. Thus it was figured that the "worst" of what the Nazis would do was substantially less than what the Nazis would actually do. And when his ambassador, William Dodd, tried to push Roosevelt into taking a more confrontational stance with Hitler, he also frustrated members of Roosevelt's State Department and they would push Dodd out because they didn't like the reports Dodd sent back.

And at the same time, even if Roosevelt was quick to jump into rabid anti-Nazism before Germany began crossing borders, he was also trying to present himself as favoring a more regulated form of Capitalism, economically speaking, and had to hold himself accountable before political opponents in the US. Thus punishing IBM for doing business in Germany wouldn't look like Roosevelt was supporting a capitalist economy and that would likely raise opposition that would potentially risk his ability to hold office.

And the per-emptive war route? And operating under all your assumptions, like at the highest levels, they actually wanted to stop Hitler. I don't think France and Britain could have taken Germany then. I'd go back to Rhodes-Rothschild-Milner, the Round Table, secret society and their plan of Anglo hegemony. They figured out they couldn't beat Germany without the US at least 6 years before the first war (and that was a Germany without a Dawes Plan or a Young Plan). The 1936 version of Germany was built for war. When it did come to blows, exactly how many days did France last?

This is ridiculous and a repetition of the old myth that the German military was awesome and only lost due to numbers...

The German military in WW2 was tactically skilled, but it was not something that was just snapped on like a light. It was something that took time to build and prepare, and in comparison to France and Britain that really weren't functioning under major arms restrictions, the Germans were having to rebuild their army completely from scratch following the terms at Versailles in 1919. The German army was tiny, and while they got some help in getting around certain terms in the treaty in 20s, they were not ready for a full on conflict with its neighbors. Hitler would devote much of the German economy into building up the German military after coming to power, but much of this still took time and by the time that conflicts with its neighbors arose, outside of the officer corps, much of the newly developed Wehrmacht were not fully trained. It was such that when the plan to move into the Rhineland was ordered, there were also orders that included a retreat should the French respond with force. And in this, I'd take what's been reported with regard to OKW/OKH orders over a secret society with no power over the French or German armies.
 
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Functioning Democracy in what way? Rule by emergency decree had becoem standard and parliament mostly sidelined.

Yes, but this was also a large part of the Weimar Republic even before the Nazis and much of the worst abuses came from those that were a bit less authoritarian than what the Nazis would be later. This still left their elections open and thus leading to the possibility of one of the parties more in favor of compromise winning... in theory. For remember, the Nazis only got 33% of the vote in 1933. That means that 77% of the German population voted for someone other than the Nazis.
 
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Whats the sources if you quote things coul dyou please , soucre title , pagenumber. Quotes without source are less than usefull.
The quotes are very useful. You just don't like what they say.

This exchange started with me asking you a question you haven't answered yet. I have pateintly allowed you to cross examine me and provided some of my evidnece, at considerable personal effort. The one-way street has reached its end.
 
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And then did nothing... or voted for Hitler. In 1933, German elections were still relatively free. People could have voted for the Catholic Center Party rather than the Nazis. They could have voted for the Social Democrats rather than the Nazis.
I suppose in your mind that is a distinction. You get the machinations of Franz Von Pappen and Eugenio Pacelli, either way.

FWIW, you are time-tripping. I was speaking post 1933, you are now winding the clock back.It's not the first time.
 
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in theory. For remember, the Nazis only got 33% of the vote in 1933. That means that 77% of the German population voted for someone other than the Nazis.
I have heard of people who supposedly give 110%, but this is the first time I have heard of an election turning out 110% of the voters.
 
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This is ridiculous and a repetition of the old myth that the German military was awesome and only lost due to numbers...
So, I have my choice between your opinion and ridiculous myth?

I didn't say awesome, per se. I said better than France. And FWIW, it's not the military, per se. It's the capacity to start on some Day X, and going forward, make more stuff. The Americans didn't build an IG Farben in France or Britain.

Historically, here's what happened. Somewhere between 1923 and 1940 a threshold was passed. In 1923, France occupied the Rhineland and aided in the turmoil in Bavaria - and in someone's mind - there were visions of the old Rhineland Confederation of Napoleonic days. In 1940, even with aid, France was helpless to stop a 30-day German march to Paris. So, there is a time when, first, Germany cannot resist French occupation (1923 and alter). Then, there is a time when France cannot resist German occupation (1940 or earlier). There is breakeven point separating those two. I bet, in your estimate, that point is at least three years later than in my estimate. IMO, it is a few years before the Munich Conference, by which time, it's way too late. Poor Neville, a name that will live in undeserved infamy.

Thus it was figured that the "worst" of what the Nazis would do was substantially less than what the Nazis would actually do.
I can make no sense out of your arguments. First, you try to tell me the Nazi rise due to anti-Jewish rhetoric. (I told you those rose, because for several years, they made numerous deals with the industrial corporations and banks that were created and empowered by the Dawes and Young Plans). And then after 1936, when Germany is the second-leading industrial nation, with all this power to project military force - now it's a big surprise that they will exercise their anti-Jewishness by trying to kill every Jew in Pale of Settlement, using their American-made might to knock out whoever gets in their way?

Not buying that. Sorry. IMO, Mr. FDR is not stupid. He knows where Hitler is going. There is a book called The Time of Jacob's Trouble, several actually, but I refer to one written in 1938 by Bauman, a preacher in California. How does he already know that Hitler is an extinction level event for the Jews, if FDR can't figure that out?
 
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I have heard of people who supposedly give 110%, but this is the first time I have heard of an election turning out 110% of the voters.

That was more a math error. Should be that 67% voted against the Nazis in 1933.
 
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I suppose in your mind that is a distinction. You get the machinations of Franz Von Pappen and Eugenio Pacelli, either way.

FWIW, you are time-tripping. I was speaking post 1933, you are now winding the clock back.It's not the first time.

There are always machinations for power, but what brought the Nazis to power was a democratic vote. They did NOT overthrow the Weimar Republic. The only time they actually tried that, they failed. Actions taken after 1933 reflect their intention of holding power, which would be a given considering the fact that they made a fair number of critical statements about liberal democracy. But that's still not what brought them to power. That's something they did after they were in power to prevent any change of opinion from forcing them out of power.
 
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So, I have my choice between your opinion and ridiculous myth?

My opinion is more accurate than a ridiculous myth that is designed to make Germany look "awesome." In general the Germans were better than France in 1940... but that is 1940, after the Nazis had nearly had ten years to build up their military/industrial complex from when they took power in 1933. When they marched into the Rhineland, there hadn't been that much in the way of development.

Historically, here's what happened. Somewhere between 1923 and 1940 a threshold was passed. In 1923, France occupied the Rhineland and aided in the turmoil in Bavaria - and in someone's mind - there were visions of the old Rhineland Confederation of Napoleonic days.

Perhaps, but that threshold was not in 1933. The German economy had been wrecked by WW1 and was still rebuilding through the twenties. And while this was done by the mid 20s, the Weimar government didn't engage in the level of militarization that the Nazis did. In this when the Nazis took power in 1933 they would essentially be rebuilding a large military force from scratch and this would not be something done easily, particularly from 1933-1936 when they were trying to hide these actions. This meant that the Germans did not have a large, mechanized force, that was fully trained and fully prepared, even by 1939. In fact much of their artillery and logistics were still horse drawn in 1939... It was only their mechanized divisions that were fully mechanized. The rest was not that different from the men who fought in WWI. The book "Soldat" covers the service of one of those artillery officers from 1939-1945... and points to the fact that they were horse drawn units.

And at the same time, the development in the German army did not exist in a vacuum. France did respond and did build on its own military forces at the same time. It was for this reason that when Hitler wanted to march into the Rhineland that there were concerns about the French response. See: Remilitarisation of the Rhineland. And concerns over the French military's response to German action was still there over events and actions coming later, that Hitler's plans for advancing Nazi Party policies would trigger a war and bring about German defeat. This would include issues like the Oster Conspiracy in 1938, fearing that the Munich Crisis would lead to war and included supposed underground plans to topple Hitler if it did so. See: Oster conspiracy - Wikipedia And certain elements of this were there even in 1940, though the results of the Battle of France soon silenced that until 1943 when Germany began to lose the war.

And this reinforces my point that the Germans could have done more to oppose Hitler... Could have taken a firmer stance against him, because the Nazis can't arrest EVERYONE.

In 1940, even with aid, France was helpless to stop a 30-day German march to Paris.

This misrepresents how Germany won the Battle of France in 1940, for France was FAR from helpless. In 1940, the French and British not only had more tanks than the Germans but in many respects they had better tanks than the Germans. And head on clashes in 1940 at Hannut and Gembloux the French actually got the tactical results they wanted from the engagement. The German advance was stopped and bloodied. In fact the Germans suffered heavier losses at Hannut than the French did.

The issue that hurt the French was that Gamelin expected the main German thrust to be in northern Belgium as it was in 1914, not through the Ardennes and thus placed his forces to stop the Schlieffen Plan. When the German army emerged in force at Sedan, the best of the French army was caught out of position, setting up the fierce fighting for Dunkirk that claimed the bulk of France's best units their operational equipment. It was a result of better German tactics and a strategy that wasn't even considered possible. It was not the result of the Germans simply being "better."

So, there is a time when, first, Germany cannot resist French occupation (1923 and alter). Then, there is a time when France cannot resist German occupation (1940 or earlier). There is breakeven point separating those two. I bet, in your estimate, that point is at least three years later than in my estimate. IMO, it is a few years before the Munich Conference, by which time, it's way too late. Poor Neville, a name that will live in undeserved infamy.

Given the German concerns over what the French might do over the Rhineland and even over the Sudetenland in 1938... that balance at tipping point is likely going to be somewhere between 1937-1939. Because building a good army takes time and takes economic energy... or potentially costs economic energy. If Germany was militarily and economically ready for war in 1935-1936 there would not have been the hesitancy of taking action over the Rhineland or threatening war over the Sudetenland. But that concern was there, and as such, Germany was not ready... or at least wasn't confident that it was.

First, you try to tell me the Nazi rise due to anti-Jewish rhetoric. (I told you those rose, because for several years, they made numerous deals with the industrial corporations and banks that were created and empowered by the Dawes and Young Plans).

Funding is not the same thing as a message. The Nazis may have gotten money from these companies, but they did not campaign to the German people, "vote for us because we want money from the Young Plan." The German people weren't going to vote for that kind of message. The Nazis rose to power on the message they sold to the German people. What financed them was merely the means by which they used to propagate that message.

And then after 1936, when Germany is the second-leading industrial nation, with all this power to project military force - now it's a big surprise that they will exercise their anti-Jewishness by trying to kill every Jew in Pale of Settlement, using their American-made might to knock out whoever gets in their way?

It was a surprise to the politicians trying to confront Hitler. For keep in mind, much of this was set up by the remembering of the propaganda from WWI. During that war, the British put out a lot of propaganda that had Germany committing all sorts of atrocities just because they were Germans. Including the reports of sending the bodies of those killed in Belgium to "corpse factories" where the human fat would be reduced to candle wax and things like that. After WWI, many of these atrocity stories were proven to be made up. Thus the cynicism over this sort of thing struck hard going into the pre-WW2 and during the war. That if the reports of the Germans committing atrocities was proven false in the last war, it MUST be false in the present as well.

Reports did make their way out... but no one really wanted to see it. No one wanted to believe that the country that gave the world Luther, Wittgenstien, Beehoven, Mozart, Goethe, the Brothers Grimm, and others could sink to such barbarism.

Not buying that. Sorry. IMO, Mr. FDR is not stupid. He knows where Hitler is going. There is a book called The Time of Jacob's Trouble, several actually, but I refer to one written in 1938 by Bauman, a preacher in California. How does he already know that Hitler is an extinction level event for the Jews, if FDR can't figure that out?

Not saying that there weren't concerns or that Roosevelt was "stupid." But there is ultimately a difference between a private citizen, free to voice his opinion, and a President who must take other things into account. And with other factors in mind... I'd think that while Roosevelt came to distrust German aggression with its neighbors ultimately fell into the same camp of people that couldn't believe that Germany would become as barbarous as it did under Hitler.
 
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In 1940, even with aid, France was helpless to stop a 30-day German march to Paris. So, there is a time when, first, Germany cannot resist French occupation (1923 and alter). Then, there is a time when France cannot resist German occupation (1940 or earlier).
THAT was a triumph of German strategy and tactics, coupled with a couple of disastrous calls and deployments by the Allies. But NOT of either German industrial production or technological superiority.

Have you ever tried playing some of the more ambitious WWII themed computer strategy games out there? A recurring feature is how you either have to nerf the French in 1940 to ridiculously ahistorical levels of military weakness, or script events closely so that everyone acts just like they did historically in 1940, in order to get a German win. Because if you leave the French with something like what they actually had in 1940, and a human player with a decent idea about what is coming, the French stop the Germans pretty much every damn time.
 
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And this reinforces my point that the Germans could have done more to oppose Hitler... Could have taken a firmer stance against him, because the Nazis can't arrest EVERYONE.
No, but to the Nazi intimidation tactics began already in the 1920's. And for intimidation to work, killings are better than arrests, and the Nazis began that early. And once in power they could then do both. And no, of course they couldn't kill everyone, anymore than they could arrest everyone. Then again they didn't have to, as they did make it plain they could kill anyone, and arrest anyone. And in the end the Nazi regime in power did end up putting 1,5 million German political opponents in prison or KZ-lager. So it's not as if prison wasn't a potent prospect for German dissenters in the Nazi period.
 
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THAT was a triumph of German strategy and tactics, coupled with a couple of disastrous calls and deployments by the Allies. But NOT of either German industrial production or technological superiority.

Have you ever tried playing some of the more ambitious WWII themed computer strategy games out there? A recurring feature is how you either have to nerf the French in 1940 to ridiculously ahistorical levels of military weakness, or script events closely so that everyone acts just like they did historically in 1940, in order to get a German win. Because if you leave the French with something like what they actually had in 1940, and a human player with a decent idea about what is coming, the French stop the Germans pretty much every damn time.
So, the player who takes the French side has to know what is coming? Did the Prussians know what was coming in 1870?

And you are missing the point. What you call German industrial production is actually German-American industrial production. Germany didn't go from prostrate and bankrupt to Blitzkrieg-capable in 15 years by itself.
Ford and GM Scrutinized for Alleged Nazi Collaboration

It get back to the OP. All these governments use elements of capitalism, socialism,communism and fascism.. It's not a clash between those isms.
 
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The III Reich's economy was fascistic, meaning the Party was the intervener with capital and labor in determining what the economy needed or where it should go.

In America today, we see government plus business private-public projects, such as Utah's UTA transportation operation. It's American fascism not socialism.
 
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So, the player who takes the French side has to know what is coming?
No he does not. All he has to do is NOT send the bulk of the mobile French army to be cut off somewhere up by the Dutch border by the German "sickle cut". Don't do that and there are simply enough French bodies between the Germans and where they want to go to slow them right down.

The scenario in WWII worked out the way it did because the bulk of the Allied mobile forces where somewhere else than where the German ended up fighting the decisive engagement. And that's impossible to replicate without scripting the scenario in such a fashion as to have two French armies + the BEF walking away from the war to be cut off without firing a a shot in an offside position where the could not influence the outcome.

That's why the German victory in France was a triumph of strategy, and to some extent tactics, but really NOT of industrial or technological capabilities.
 
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