Joined Nov 2011
105 Posts | 0+
Joined Nov 2010
10,011 Posts | 3,078+
Stockport Cheshire UK
Oh please
Even in the days of empire we didn't go to war over silly incidents like this.
Joined Dec 2010
6,617 Posts | 10+
The Netherlands
what, do you think Britain should again persue the aggresive policies of 1900?
War is costly,
War is not liked by the population,
War makes you look bad in the international community.
What would they win when they attacked Iran?
honour?
a reputation?
Joined Sep 2011
24,135 Posts | 8+
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What about the American Hikers that were kept in jail for years, the woman only got released first because she had ...... cancer, the men stayed in jail for longer. Your hardline Americans did not go to war over that, or should you only go to war when a few soldiers get captured? Not civilians?
Joined Nov 2011
105 Posts | 0+
They were civilians who actually entered Iran. These are members of the armed forces captured in Iraqi waters.
Joined Nov 2011
105 Posts | 0+
Oh please
Even in the days of empire we didn't go to war over silly incidents like this.
I take it you have never heard of the Don Pacifico affair?
Joined Jul 2011
7,400 Posts | 945+
Australia
OK, so now we know a little of where you are coming from. I agree that the Iraq incident was not the RNs finest hour, however having worked with the RN and RM I can say that their professionalism is second to none. We do tend to take the piss out of the 'Nintendo Generation' of servicemen, however there is no reason to believe that they are any less competent and professional than their predecessors.
Joined Sep 2011
24,135 Posts | 8+
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But the Iranians did not behead them, they were looked after and then were released, you want a war for this?
I am surprised that you think war should be declared on such a whim, pride, my friend, is nothing to go to war for.
Joined Nov 2011
105 Posts | 0+
We should have threatened Iran to give in and they would have had to capitulate.
Joined Nov 2011
105 Posts | 0+
Oh I won't say a thing against the RM. I remember the two bootnecks looked really pissed off whilst their matelot friends were grinning for the TV. I'm sure they would have liked a scrap.
Joined Jun 2006
10,363 Posts | 32+
U.K.
Sadly I can understand Wiggamore's point of view and sympathise to an extent; I was mortified when I learned that they'd surrendered without a fight and thought about Nelson spinning in his grave for a moment or two.
That said, the officer on the spot would have been under strict rules of engagement and would have been limited in what actions he could have taken, so it is unfair to second guess or criticise, years after the event.
As far as I know, the Court of Enquiry cleared the officer involved.
As for the navy, it has pulled the Army out of the fire on more than one occasion, so let's not be too harsh if they enjoy a bit of quality gaming time now and again.
Now the Air force, on the other hand...
That said, the officer on the spot would have been under strict rules of engagement and would have been limited in what actions he could have taken, so it is unfair to second guess or criticise, years after the event.
As far as I know, the Court of Enquiry cleared the officer involved.
As for the navy, it has pulled the Army out of the fire on more than one occasion, so let's not be too harsh if they enjoy a bit of quality gaming time now and again.
Now the Air force, on the other hand...
Joined Dec 2010
6,617 Posts | 10+
The Netherlands
though I would not mind somebody blowing the poop out of Iran (good language right?) we must consider that times have changed.
People have become much more pacifistic and nowadays when you invade a country you need the support of pretty much the entire world behind you, otherwise you will be losing a lot of money on economic sanctions etc.
Joined Feb 2011
13,604 Posts | 165+
Perambulating in St James' Park
Ex RNR and I'm afraid I have to play Devil's advocate and agree a bit with Whiggmore on this. Arrse slag the incident off non stop and to be honest the particular servicemen captured weren't the brightest individuals and certainly had no idea of diplomacy or statesmanship. The gormless twit who made a fuss over his ipod and let the details out to journos whilst pished in Guzz is a definite **** and has done more damage to the service in the last 10 years than any enemy. Even the officer went out of his way to buddy up with Ah-Ma-Dinnerjacket on camera.
I spose you have to take into account that Nelson's Navy never had TV cameras so any humiliating scenes are lost, the modern RN has to be accountable for every action. They were also completely out gunned by the Iranians, you can't do much in a rib with an SA80 against their gunboats, but we did have a Lynx on station doing F/A.
Also, I can't imagine the USMC having this sort of problem, the main disadvantage of today's RN, as with most of Britain, is it's lack of self identity. I doubt most modern matelots know the extent of the glorious history of the RN. It was and is the most illustrious force in the modern Western world. Names which should be on the tip of every sailor's tongue, Pellew, Collingwood, Jervis, Hood and Rodney are largely forgotten. Even the average bloke in the street has no clue because the history is no longer taught. The Royal Navy, in my humble opinion, has lost it's esprit de corps.
Modern servicemen should be told that the whole glory of the service lies on their shoulders and it's their duty to continue the legacy of their forefathers, instead no mention is made of past glories. In my training one officer tried to get us to shout 'Hooah' in a similar style to the US Army. What the hell!? A prime example of ignorance of tradition.
I spose you have to take into account that Nelson's Navy never had TV cameras so any humiliating scenes are lost, the modern RN has to be accountable for every action. They were also completely out gunned by the Iranians, you can't do much in a rib with an SA80 against their gunboats, but we did have a Lynx on station doing F/A.
Also, I can't imagine the USMC having this sort of problem, the main disadvantage of today's RN, as with most of Britain, is it's lack of self identity. I doubt most modern matelots know the extent of the glorious history of the RN. It was and is the most illustrious force in the modern Western world. Names which should be on the tip of every sailor's tongue, Pellew, Collingwood, Jervis, Hood and Rodney are largely forgotten. Even the average bloke in the street has no clue because the history is no longer taught. The Royal Navy, in my humble opinion, has lost it's esprit de corps.
Modern servicemen should be told that the whole glory of the service lies on their shoulders and it's their duty to continue the legacy of their forefathers, instead no mention is made of past glories. In my training one officer tried to get us to shout 'Hooah' in a similar style to the US Army. What the hell!? A prime example of ignorance of tradition.
Joined Feb 2011
13,604 Posts | 165+
Perambulating in St James' Park
Sadly I can understand Wiggamore's point of view and sympathise to an extent; I was mortified when I learned that they'd surrendered without a fight and thought about Nelson spinning in his grave for a moment or two.
That said, the officer on the spot would have been under strict rules of engagement and would have been limited in what actions he could have taken, so it is unfair to second guess or criticise, years after the event.
As far as I know, the Court of Enquiry cleared the officer involved.
As for the navy, it has pulled the Army out of the fire on more than one occasion, so let's not be too harsh if they enjoy a bit of quality gaming time now and again.
Now the Air force, on the other hand...
I think the Army and the Navy are both in agreement that the ridiculous experiment known as the RAF should be brought to an end.
Joined Nov 2011
105 Posts | 0+
There wouldn't have been a war. Iran won because they knew they could act and we would wimp out and back down. If they thought for a moment that such an action would result in the loss of their 3 Vosper Mark frigates in a single strike.
Joined Nov 2011
105 Posts | 0+
Earl of Roch - were you on River Class or Archer Class when you were with RNR?
Joined Dec 2010
6,617 Posts | 10+
The Netherlands
Joined Feb 2011
13,604 Posts | 165+
Perambulating in St James' Park
I was 2002-2007 so RNR ships were long gone in my brief stint, unfortunately I'm a bit ill now and can't rejoin due to medical otherwise I'd definitely have another crack at it.
Joined Feb 2011
13,604 Posts | 165+
Perambulating in St James' Park
The officer in question outranked me, but I did give my opinions to my own CO when I returned. Quite frustrating really because I'd love to get back in. I initially left for work reasons, but now I have a bit more time I could offer far more to the service, damn medical stuff prevents me permanently though - bah!
Joined Nov 2011
105 Posts | 0+
Most off Earl of Roch.
When I was a recruit regimental history was extremely important. I can tell you all our battle honours and about the campaigns they were in.
This was back in the eighties though.
The RNR had River class minesweepers and Archer class pursuit ships in my time. I did small arms training for HMS Sussex and their ship HMS Arun.
When I was a recruit regimental history was extremely important. I can tell you all our battle honours and about the campaigns they were in.
This was back in the eighties though.
The RNR had River class minesweepers and Archer class pursuit ships in my time. I did small arms training for HMS Sussex and their ship HMS Arun.
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