Ethics of eating meat.

Taikuri · Jun 22, 2020

Yôḥānān said:
I'm sorry but I don't understand what exactly is your point. Around here there is a saying that "each one does what he is able to and is not obliged to more".

That the ethical issue is more with the industrial nature of the practices rather than with eating meat itself?

specul8 · Jun 22, 2020

Tulius said:
Sin is a religious fault for persons of some determined religion. For those who are not from that religion it is not a fault.

Besides Vegans (and even some Vegetarians) don't drink milk.

They are eaten in Australia?

Indeed! But only by some . Not me ! Its a sacred totemic creator spirit for me . The ' boys ' ( some Bunjalung lads) where camped out at my place, they wanted to hunt yumbar and gungali ( diamond python and 'lace monitor' goanna ) and asked me if it was okay . I was hesitant .... " Oh guys ! Some of those animals have personal names for me . "

The 'boss' ; " Oh .... okay then , but the boys are not feeling well, all this white fellah food upset their stomach, they need some bush tucker or they get sick ." - they are all sitting around staring at me , waiting - " What about the butcher in town , does he sell kangaroo or anything like that ? "

Me; " Oh no , nothing like that in town . Just a take away shop < grimmace> some restaurants and cafes < grimace > ... and a pizza shop .... "

" PIZA ! ? You got pizza shop .... lets go town and get pizza < chorus > Yum pizza, yeah lets go get pizza ! "

So we went and hunted down some pizza .

specul8 · Jun 22, 2020

Dan Howard said:
Only in survival situations or as part of a traditional native diet. You can't buy snake meat from the supermarket or a regular butcher. I've eaten it and find that it tastes better than chicken. Nutritionists reckon that snake meat is very healthy and is easy to prepare. The animal consists primarily of lean solid muscle. I'd like to keep one around the home to manage the mice but the wife isn't too keen. The best I've been able to manage is to have a couple of mid-sized skinks running around the house to keep the cockroaches under control.

Tastes like croc , but with an actual flavor

I have these huge skinks , they live in the wood pile, have a tangerine colored belly and keep laying eggs in the pot plants . They have got tame now and come inside and walk across the floor, stop stare at me and " Ahhhh , he aint gonna bother me ." and keep going . The other night one came out from under the lounge and lay in front of the fire to warm up

They do eat the cockies , but the cockies run up the walls and sit there where lizard cant get them ..... so I spotlight them and get them with a dart gun . Its okay ... just a little indoor sport shooting ... I dont eat the kill though .

Yôḥānān · Jun 22, 2020

Taikuri said:
That the ethical issue is more with the industrial nature of the practices rather than with eating meat itself?

Doesn't seem so because for a start you can grow potatoes, fava beans, green beans, tomatoes and many other things without killing mice. Also when someone engages in vegetarianism for long enough eating flesh starts to look as a form of cannibalism.
Not to mention that in order to kill animals to eat a person has to desensitize herself.

Willempie · Jun 22, 2020

Yôḥānān said:
Doesn't seem so because for a start you can grow potatoes, fava beans, green beans, tomatoes and many other things without killing mice. Also when someone engages in vegetarianism for long enough eating flesh starts to look as a form of cannibalism.

Just remember that the smart ones always eat meat/fish/insects. All apes, dolphins, squids do.

NordicDemosthenes · Jun 22, 2020

This is a complex question which I once committed reproductive suicide with in regards to a woman I was very much smitten with. Anyway, with that said I think there are other ethical considerations besides suffering

Such as

- aesthetics

- authenticity and living in accordance with nature (or the perception thereof anyway)

- unknowns.

Coming from the perspective of someone who's family (even if extended) has hunted since before I was born, I find the notion that we should just cease eating meat because it inflicts suffering to be fundamentally unconvincing, diplomatically put. Most European cuisines are based around meat, fish or dairy and the reality is that food is a large part of who you are as a person, at least it is that way to many. Sure, I can appreciate Chinese food, but it's not the same as a nice bit of reindeer with lingonberry jam and karl-johan mushrooms. Even though Japanese food is tasty as well as aesthetically appealing it's also just not the same to me, even though I can definetely appreciate it. Indian food can be extremely tasty, but it's aesthetically entirely dead to me. I have no doubt many people would say the same about the cuisine from their country etc.

I think it's perfectly legitimate not too eat meat if one chooses to, and I respect people who take that decision and really go with the principle. But then of course, the same people should also try to not cause suffering in other fields of life, and do their best to live as buddhist ascetics, lest risking hypocricy. Some are thorough this way. Many don't seem to be.

Another aspect which I think is not often considered is the long-term societal effects of encouraging vegetarianism/ veganism, especially in societies where that is not the norm historically. Sure, people can do what they want on the individual level, but any society has norms. If your society has had it as a norm to eat meat for over a thousand years, and you suddenly stop because a lot of people suddenly find it offensive for what is essentially religious reasons, then that society has likely undergone a profound cultural change in values more generally. What food we are socialized to eat is a certain marker of identity and things that shape us at an early stage of our lives - I would wager.

People can choose to become vegan or vegetarian when they grow up, parents who raise their children vegan is not something I'm terribly sympathetic towards.

Mastersonmcvoidson · Jun 22, 2020

NordicDemosthenes said:
This is a complex question which I once committed reproductive suicide with in regards to a woman I was very much smitten with. Anyway, with that said I think there are other ethical considerations besides suffering

Such as

- aesthetics

- authenticity and living in accordance with nature (or the perception thereof anyway)

- unknowns.

Coming from the perspective of someone who's family (even if extended) has hunted since before I was born, I find the notion that we should just cease eating meat because it inflicts suffering to be fundamentally unconvincing, diplomatically put. Most European cuisines are based around meat, fish or dairy and the reality is that food is a large part of who you are as a person, at least it is that way to many. Sure, I can appreciate Chinese food, but it's not the same as a nice bit of reindeer with lingonberry jam and karl-johan mushrooms. Even though Japanese food is tasty as well as aesthetically appealing it's also just not the same to me, even though I can definetely appreciate it. Indian food can be extremely tasty, but it's aesthetically entirely dead to me. I have no doubt many people would say the same about the cuisine from their country etc.

I think it's perfectly legitimate not too eat meat if one chooses to, and I respect people who take that decision and really go with the principle. But then of course, the same people should also try to not cause suffering in other fields of life, and do their best to live as buddhist ascetics, lest risking hypocricy. Some are thorough this way. Many don't seem to be.

Another aspect which I think is not often considered is the long-term societal effects of encouraging vegetarianism/ veganism, especially in societies where that is not the norm historically. Sure, people can do what they want on the individual level, but any society has norms. If your society has had it as a norm to eat meat for over a thousand years, and you suddenly stop because a lot of people suddenly find it offensive for what is essentially religious reasons, then that society has likely undergone a profound cultural change in values more generally. What food we are socialized to eat are one of the earliest markers of identity and things that shape us at an early stage of our lives - I would wager. It is nonetheless irresponsible to socially engineer mass behavioural change in the way some vegan and vegetarian advocates argue, for the simple reason that we can't really know, can we? People can choose to become vegan or vegetarian when they grow up, parents who raise their children vegan is not something I'm terribly sympathetic towards.

Can it be? You're back, I've missed your interesting posts.

NordicDemosthenes · Jun 22, 2020

Mastersonmcvoidson said:
Can it be? You're back, I've missed your interesting posts.

Thank you! I took a break, had a bad period in life. I strongly appreciate the compliment

Good to be back!

specul8 · Jun 22, 2020

I had a vego GF for a while . It was a tricky situation (unless I just agreed and folded of course ) . One time we and her friend where going out for dinner, and I was tired of vego food and said so . I got a lecture and expression of disgust at me for being a meat eater , it turns into a big fight and I ; " Fine ! Then the two of you go and eat whatever you want , and I will eat somewhere else so I dont disgust you so much . "

Later that night they come home , GF is furious and storms off to room and slams door. I ask her friend whats up and she said they went into Mexican resteraunt to have a vego meal but just as they worked through the door a pressure cooker in the kitchen exploded and a glob of meat went sailing through the restaurant , splattered her in the face and some went in her mouth . . . . even her GF was trying not to laugh as she told me .

Taikuri · Jun 22, 2020

Yôḥānān said:
Doesn't seem so because for a start you can grow potatoes, fava beans, green beans, tomatoes and many other things without killing mice. Also when someone engages in vegetarianism for long enough eating flesh starts to look as a form of cannibalism.
Not to mention that in order to kill animals to eat a person has to desensitize herself.

But you can't do so industrially without killing mice, birds, rodents, etc, which allows us to have as many people alive as there are now. That's why vegetarianism seems like something luxurious that Westerners can afford (those that can't and are given the option usually jump to the chance at eating animals) and they use that luxury to look down upon others. I absolutely agree in that the industrial nature of agriculture and animal husbandry desentizises us from from our food, I feel some measure of shame that I have never harvested an animal from beginning to end. And while I could see and understand ethical objections to eating meat, I'd say someone who'd claim it's cannibalism is delusional.

duncanness · Jun 22, 2020

specul8 said:
I had a vego GF for a while . It was a tricky situation (unless I just agreed and folded of course ) . One time we and her friend where going out for dinner, and I was tired of vego food and said so . I got a lecture and expression of disgust at me for being a meat eater , it turns into a big fight and I ; " Fine ! Then the two of you go and eat whatever you want , and I will eat somewhere else so I dont disgust you so much . "

Later that night they come home , GF is furious and storms off to room and slams door. I ask her friend whats up and she said they went into Mexican resteraunt to have a vego meal but just as they worked through the door a pressure cooker in the kitchen exploded and a glob of meat went sailing through the restaurant , splattered her in the face and some went in her mouth . . . . even her GF was trying not to laugh as she told me .

Fortunately, I have found that most vegetarians (and vegans) are pretty good at picking out what they wlll eat; restaurants make that easy. And, I've found that most non-vegetarians of my acquaintance are not as confrontational--especially if the relationship goes back a bit. Or as an old expression goes, "its each man for himself and God for us all".

Taikuri · Jun 22, 2020

specul8 said:
I had a vego GF for a while . It was a tricky situation (unless I just agreed and folded of course ) . One time we and her friend where going out for dinner, and I was tired of vego food and said so . I got a lecture and expression of disgust at me for being a meat eater , it turns into a big fight and I ; " Fine ! Then the two of you go and eat whatever you want , and I will eat somewhere else so I dont disgust you so much . "

Later that night they come home , GF is furious and storms off to room and slams door. I ask her friend whats up and she said they went into Mexican resteraunt to have a vego meal but just as they worked through the door a pressure cooker in the kitchen exploded and a glob of meat went sailing through the restaurant , splattered her in the face and some went in her mouth . . . . even her GF was trying not to laugh as she told me .

When I was in school we had an outing and as is traditional we sharpened some sticks, put sausages on them and fried them on a fire. A teacher then started telling us how those sausages are made in order to persuade us to her cause. It had no effect, but only later I realised that surely those sausages are good in the sense that if an animal has to be killed then it's only positive that every single usable part of an animal is used.

NordicDemosthenes · Jun 22, 2020

specul8 said:
I had a vego GF for a while . It was a tricky situation (unless I just agreed and folded of course ) . One time we and her friend where going out for dinner, and I was tired of vego food and said so . I got a lecture and expression of disgust at me for being a meat eater , it turns into a big fight and I ; " Fine ! Then the two of you go and eat whatever you want , and I will eat somewhere else so I dont disgust you so much . "

Later that night they come home , GF is furious and storms off to room and slams door. I ask her friend whats up and she said they went into Mexican resteraunt to have a vego meal but just as they worked through the door a pressure cooker in the kitchen exploded and a glob of meat went sailing through the restaurant , splattered her in the face and some went in her mouth . . . . even her GF was trying not to laugh as she told me .

Must have been quite the taste explosion...

Yôḥānān · Jun 22, 2020

Willempie said:
Just remember that the smart ones always eat meat/fish/insects. All apes, dolphins, squids do.

Pythagoras, Apollonius of Tyana, Plutarch and probably most of the famous Neoplatonists and many names that followed them didn't and don't.

Yôḥānān · Jun 22, 2020

Taikuri said:
But you can't do so industrially without killing mice, birds, rodents, etc, which allows us to have as many people alive as there are now. That's why vegetarianism seems like something luxurious that Westerners can afford (those that can't and are given the option usually jump to the chance at eating animals) and they use that luxury to look down upon others. I absolutely agree in that the industrial nature of agriculture and animal husbandry desentizises us from from our food, I feel some measure of shame that I have never harvested an animal from beginning to end. And while I could see and understand ethical objections to eating meat, I'd say someone who'd claim it's cannibalism is delusional.

The prospect of a vegetarian society does look like a major civilizational achievement. Don't forget that since recorded times there were people who had that level of conscience though. This however may be more an issue of knowledge and ignorance than anything else since you always had large segments of the population that followed even if many times out of necessity a vegetarian diet or close to that.

Willempie · Jun 22, 2020

Yôḥānān said:
Pythagoras, Apollonius of Tyana, Plutarch and probably most of the famous Neoplatonists and many names that followed them didn't and don't.

That wasn't really my point. Evolutionary speaking it tends to be smarter to eat meat.

Yôḥānān · Jun 22, 2020

Willempie said:
That wasn't really my point. Evolutionary speaking it tends to be smarter to eat meat.

Maybe the people mentioned are not the smart ones but the intelligent ones, nevertheless they
look at the evolutionary peak.

NordicDemosthenes · Jun 22, 2020

Yôḥānān said:
The prospect of a vegetarian society does look like a major civilizational achievement. Don't forget that since recorded times there were people who had that level of conscience though. This however may be more an issue of knowledge and ignorance than anything else since you always had large segments of the population that followed even if many times out of necessity a vegetarian diet or close to that.

If we could take away every bit of danger from society, is that an achievement? If we can take away every bit of "immorality" and suffering, is that advancement?

I think it is essential that we not fool ourselves into believing we are something we're not. Human beings are not infinitely nice. Unless we establish some kind of futuristic totalitarian world state and radically change human nature (which hopefully we won't), any society that strives to be infinitely nice and not dare to harm anyone or anything for any reason is a society that will be taken advantage of and played, either by some group in their own society or by someone from the outside.

I don't want to offend you but I genuinely think any strictly vegetarian paradise would have secret underground cults where the most "virtuous" of its elites kill live animals for the fun of it and then eat them in the most gruesome way possible. It's the way of mankind, we tend to suck when there is no balance between ideals and values. I prefer to live in a society where there is more balance and the capacity for inflicting suffering is more spread out and therefore becomes less perverted.

Willempie · Jun 22, 2020

Yôḥānān said:
Maybe the people mentioned are not the smart ones but the intelligent ones, nevertheless they
look at the evolutionary peak.

You shouldn't get dumber or smarte by (not) eating meat.
It is however a different story when we are talking thousands of generations.

Yôḥānān · Jun 22, 2020

NordicDemosthenes said:
If we could take away every bit of danger from society, is that an achievement? If we can take away every bit of "immorality" and suffering, is that advancement?

I think it is essential that we not fool ourselves into believing we are something we're not. Human beings are not infinitely nice. Unless we establish some kind of futuristic totalitarian world state and radically change human nature (which hopefully we won't), any society that strives to be infinitely nice and not dare to harm anyone or anything for any reason is a society that will be taken advantage of and played, either by some group in their own society or by someone from the outside.

I don't want to offend you but I genuinely think any strictly vegetarian paradise would have secret underground cults where the most "virtuous" of its elites kill live animals for the fun of it and then eat them in the most gruesome way possible. It's the way of mankind, we tend to suck when there is no balance between ideals and values. I prefer to live in a society where there is more balance and the capacity for inflicting suffering is more spread out and therefore becomes less perverted.

What you are writing only shows that a true vegetarian society would be a major civilizational achievement, because what you are describing would be a hypocrite and false one.

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Ethics of eating meat.

Taikuri

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Yôḥānān

Willempie

NordicDemosthenes

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NordicDemosthenes

specul8

Taikuri

duncanness

Taikuri

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