Ethics of eating meat.

How often do Australians eat kangaroo btw? I eat it semi-regularly due to its leaness and high protein content, but my god do I hate it.

World Focker said:

How often do Australians eat kangaroo btw? I eat it semi-regularly due to its leaness and high protein content, but my god do I hate it.

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It tastes better than prime rib steak when it is cooked properly. If you try and cook it like beef, you won't like it.

Dan Howard said:

It tastes better than prime rib steak when it is cooked properly. If you try and cook it like beef, you won't like it.

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Ah, that might be it. I literally just have fillets that I pan fry/griddle along with some vegetables. I made a chilli con carne with it once, it was so strongly flavoured. I suspect I'd have to actually go to the source and try it there tbh.

Dan Howard said:

Yes. So? It takes more land and resources to produce meat than it does to produce veges. In spite of all the meat being produced, we are still producing more than enough to feed the world's population and will continue to do so. You can argue the moral superiority of a vegetarian diet but can't pretend that meat production is causing food shortages.

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The major problem with your arguments is lack of evidence.

Meanwhile the vegans and vegetarians, and also people who simply reduced their meat intake, the first labeled in this thread often as "authoritarians" are doing something effective and in a democratic way without involving draconian measures and using free market forces to improve things.


Third of Britons have stopped or reduced eating meat - report

And if one considers that high government debt is a source of instability and a real threat to democracy, less health problems associated with animal foods may reduce health care costs which are a major component of many governments budget these days.

Here are some facts that actually mean something.

1. According to the UN, it would cost around $30 billion per year to end world hunger.
2. Every year the US wastes 60 million tons of of US-produced food worth approximately $160 billion.

So if 20% of the wasted food in the US is redirected to world hunger programs, there would be no hunger. In other words, the US alone is producing 80% more food than is required to feed everyone on the planet who cannot currently feed themselves.

THERE IS NO FOOD PRODUCTION SHORTAGE AND THERE NEVER WILL BE. The world is producing more than enough food for 7 billion people. The world is producing more than enough food for 9 billion people, which is the maximum population this planet will ever see. The problem is not food production, the problem is food distribution.

Did anyone claim there is food production shortage?

Dan Howard said:

Here are some facts that actually mean something.

1. According to the UN, it would cost around $30 billion per year to end world hunger.
2. Every year the US wastes 60 million tons of of US-produced food worth approximately $160 billion.

So if 20% of the wasted food in the US is redirected to world hunger programs, there would be no hunger. In other words, the US alone is producing 80% more food than is required to feed everyone on the planet who cannot currently feed themselves.

THERE IS NO FOOD PRODUCTION SHORTAGE AND THERE NEVER WILL BE. The world is producing more than enough food for 7 billion people. The world is producing more than enough food for 9 billion people, which is the maximum population this planet will ever see. The problem is not food production, the problem is food distribution.

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First of all notice that the argument of waste is very favourable to vegetarianism, and it is a good thing that you brought it up since the price of wasting animal products is much higher whether it be at the environmental, social or moral level. And it is not clear that you will ever be able to stop waste.

Second notice that again you make uncorroborated claims like saying there will never be a food shortage.

Third what you are saying does not look like a solution to the problem, what you are saying looks more like "we have room to go by cutting waste". And that would obviously be good if it was achieved, even if it was on a vegetarian world it would always be good to cut waste. However what it is not clear is how it would stop the underlying problem that has been mentioned.

Yôḥānān said:

Sorry to disappoint but your picture doesn't show absolutely anything, and besides if you look at the other posts it is not just Australia. This is assuming you are being ironic.

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Oh, I am not disappointed at all , why would I be ? I do assume you are confused though . The picture I posted was to show what the vast cattle ranches in Australia look like ... much of the interior isnt suitable for agriculture . it isnt a picture 'not showing absolutely anything' . Maybe you forgot to put your glasses on ?

Regarding your comment to 'look at other posts, its not just Australia ' I would suggest you look at the original form of my post you just quoted , it is a response to you yourself posting information about 'just Australia ' and that is what I responded to .

I am not saying cattle ranching does not use up good land for agriculture in many places . I am not saying we should or should not be vegetarians . One thing I do have a strong opinion about is using the best agricultural land in Australia for fracking

World Focker said:

How often do Australians eat kangaroo btw? I eat it semi-regularly due to its leaness and high protein content, but my god do I hate it.

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Which Australians ? My friends further north eat it most of the time



and friends down south virtually never ;



Why do you hate it ? ( I really want to know why people would not accept it as a beef / lamb substitute . That decision / choice had a VAST historical impact on Australia . )

Dan Howard said:

It tastes better than prime rib steak when it is cooked properly. If you try and cook it like beef, you won't like it.

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Aha! That could be part of the issue ! I wonder how first settlement people tried to cook it ?

(Got a recipe for method ? I slow cooked the rump in a camp oven with rosella sauce , the boys turned their nose up at it saying 'Thats not how you cook it ' and would not touch it , but 'old uncle' scoffed it down . I've had it hung in the fire smoke slow cooked over the fire for a few days . I am fairly bored with the inevitable 'kangaroo tail stew' .

specul8 said:

Oh, I am not disappointed at all , why would I be ? I do assume you are confused though . The picture I posted was to show what the vast cattle ranches in Australia look like ... much of the interior isnt suitable for agriculture . it isnt a picture 'not showing absolutely anything' . Maybe you forgot to put your glasses on ?

Regarding your comment to 'look at other posts, its not just Australia ' I would suggest you look at the original form of my post you just quoted , it is a response to you yourself posting information about 'just Australia ' and that is what I responded to .

I am not saying cattle ranching does not use up good land for agriculture in many places . I am not saying we should or should not be vegetarians . One thing I do have a strong opinion about is using the best agricultural land in Australia for fracking

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Thank you for the explanation HakneyedSkribe already mentioned the problem with pictures at post #331.

Problem ? What problem .

HS said when he looked at pictures .... well, that depends what pictures you look at . Sure there is cattle on some 'greenery'. But the vast majority is cattle on arid land . The only problem I see here is people thinking what Australia cattle land is like without ever having been here and seeing for themselves .

..... you guys do realize Australia is the driest inhabited continent on the planet ?

specul8 said:

Problem ? What problem .

HS said when he looked at pictures .... well, that depends what pictures you look at . Sure there is cattle on some 'greenery'. But the vast majority is cattle on arid land . The only problem I see here is people thinking what Australia cattle land is like without ever having been here and seeing for themselves .

..... you guys do realize Australia is the driest inhabited continent on the planet ?

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Maybe you are a soil connoisseur who can identify if the soil is arable or not, what crops grow in it, or what is its potential for conversion by looking at a picture? Not everyone is.

You may also acknowledge that not everyone has paranormal powers to just by looking at a picture like the one you posted extrapolate how much land is being used and for what purposes in an entire continent.

specul8 said:

Aha! That could be part of the issue ! I wonder how first settlement people tried to cook it ?

(Got a recipe for method ? I slow cooked the rump in a camp oven with rosella sauce , the boys turned their nose up at it saying 'Thats not how you cook it ' and would not touch it , but 'old uncle' scoffed it down . I've had it hung in the fire smoke slow cooked over the fire for a few days . I am fairly bored with the inevitable 'kangaroo tail stew' .

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Yep, I likewise suspect (see my post earlier) that the problem is basically in how I'm cooking it, maybe.

Incidentally I don't eat beef due to environmental concerns, hence turning to meats like kangaroo to better support my musculature and my fight training. I do eat lamb occasionally, from the local farmer, but it is a treat sadly. I try to keep a firm watch on my food supply, partly due to the environment, partly due to the quality.

Yôḥānān said:

Maybe you are a soil connoisseur who can identify if the soil is arable or not, what crops grow in it, or what is its potential for conversion by looking at a picture? Not everyone is.

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I studied soil science at Sydney Uni many years ago, and more recently I was preparations maker and distributer for Biodynamic Agriculture Australia , making soil remedies and products to increase fertility ( from home garden to large scale farms ) but I have never been a 'soil connoisseur' . Not sure what YOUR point is here though , mine is (and one has to follow the relevance of the exchange ) ;

Some people are saying meat production uses up valuable land for other food production .

A chart comparing land use for meat production in Australia was posted .

I commented that it was interesting that Australia was chosen as I think most of the cattle land here is fairly desolate and unsuitable for food production and posted a pic of a large inland cattle station .


A comment was made ' well, when I look at pics of cattle farming land it looks better than that , that looks like a drought '.

Now you want to know if I can tell if land is arable and what would grow in it from looking at a picture .

Thats rather obscure

Yôḥānān said:

You may also acknowledge that not everyone has paranormal powers to just by looking at a picture like the one you posted extrapolate how much land is being used and for what purposes in an entire continent.

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Yes I do acknowledge that , so I will post 2 pictures together and lets see if you can work it out without being psychic ;



Beef cattle

World Focker said:

Yep, I likewise suspect (see my post earlier) that the problem is basically in how I'm cooking it, maybe.

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Oh, I see, I was hoping for instruction or a good recipe .

here is the basic one



Errrmmmm .....

World Focker said:

Incidentally I don't eat beef due to environmental concerns, hence turning to meats like kangaroo to better support my musculature and my fight training. I do eat lamb occasionally, from the local farmer, but it is a treat sadly. I try to keep a firm watch on my food supply, partly due to the environment, partly due to the quality.

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What fight training ?

Let me guess ?

specul8 said:

I studied soil science at Sydney Uni many years ago, and more recently I was preparations maker and distributer for Biodynamic Agriculture Australia , making soil remedies and products to increase fertility ( from home garden to large scale farms ) but I have never been a 'soil connoisseur' . Not sure what YOUR point is here though , mine is (and one has to follow the relevance of the exchange ) ;

Some people are saying meat production uses up valuable land for other food production .

A chart comparing land use for meat production in Australia was posted .

I commented that it was interesting that Australia was chosen as I think most of the cattle land here is fairly desolate and unsuitable for food production and posted a pic of a large inland cattle station .


A comment was made ' well, when I look at pics of cattle farming land it looks better than that , that looks like a drought '.

Now you want to know if I can tell if land is arable and what would grow in it from looking at a picture .

Thats rather obscure







Yes I do acknowledge that , so I will post 2 pictures together and lets see if you can work it out without being psychic ;

View attachment 32324

Beef cattle

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Conclusion: you may not be able to tell alone from a picture the quality of a soil but think other people should.

And curious enough the issue has not even been how much of the huge grazing area could be used for agriculture but how much more food for humans could provide that "small area" that is being used to grow crops for cattle.

Is Meat a Human Rights Issue?

specul8 said:

Yes I do acknowledge that , so I will post 2 pictures together and lets see if you can work it out without being psychic ;

View attachment 32324

Beef cattle

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BTW, and this is just a.side note, I'm not able to calculate areas by looking at pictures, colours can distort the perception of size and there are of course the distortions caused by map projections which may be relevant when looking at a continent like Australia. Just to say pictures and images alone while useful to illustrate a point may not be a very reliable source.

Zanis said:

At what point do you guys think,an animal becomes "person".

And is it morally justifiable to eat meat even if the said animal is not a person?

Person here refers to ability to think on a scale closer to us,like dolphins or elephants.

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I really do not 'get' the entire ethos of arguing that eating meat is in any way 'wrong'.
ALL living things, and I do mean ALL LIVING THINGS become food for other living things.

And All things that live, die. If you DON'T eat them... then that death is a pure waste.

The imbecility is in thinking that if we didn't eat meat then animals would not suffer death at our hands-... however- if humans did not eat cows and pigs, then no one would RAISE them... and you can not do any favors for animals that were never born.

In fact- this ethos is predicated on the anthropocentric fantasy of people imagining that animals in the wild live BETTER lives.... when in fact, most animals in the wild are preyed upon.
Frogs don't lay 500 eggs so there will be 500 times as many frogs... the do so because only 3 or 4 of those frogs will survive ling enough to reproduce.
And those that don't get taken by some predator, still suffer lives that are, for the most part, short, brutal and filled with terror. Nearly no animals in the wild die of old age- most succumb to predation, to parasites, to disease, and to starvation.
'Domesticated animals actually get a pretty good deal... in exchange for a relatively quick and merciful death, they get to live without fear of predation and largely without suffering diseases.

The only real question then is whether or not those animals live what we consider a humane life. Locking chickens in tiny cages or raising Cows in tiny pens I would argue is inhumane and ought not to be tolerated. Rather, I shop for meat that is free range, grass fed, from farms and ranches that actually offer livestock a decent experience of life before they become food.


As to "personhood" I think animals become persons when they can express an awareness of self. If they can pass the mirror test- then they are capable of understanding their own existence and suffering as an abstract...
But I do not think cows give much thought to their lot.

Yôḥānān said:

Conclusion: you may not be able to tell alone from a picture the quality of a soil but think other people should.

And curious enough the issue has not even been how much of the huge grazing area could be used for agriculture but how much more food for humans could provide that "small area" that is being used to grow crops for cattle.

Is Meat a Human Rights Issue?

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Your conclusions seen illogical and I am not following you due to your bad syntax . Also you do not seem to be able to understand what I am writing .