Ethnicities of ancient China royal clan

Zoopiter · Aug 24, 2012

Most secondary sources by modern day scholars and historians I read including this book clearly label the ethnicity of royal clan of Han,Jin,Sui,Tang ,Song and Ming dynasties as Han.
Ethnic Identity in Tang China - Marc Abramson - Google Books
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquest_Dynasties"]Conquest Dynasties - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

However, some people like heavenlykaghan in the 'Were the Yuan and Qing Dynasties Chinese?' thread said it's not accurate and modern scholars are being anachronistic.

heavenlykaghan said:
Modern scholars are being anachronistic, which is way too common in a day that nationalistic history dominates historiography.

If that is the case, may I know what are the ethnicity of royal clan of Qin, Han,Three kingdom(Wei,Wu,Shu), Jin,Sui,Tang,Song and Ming dynasty that they call themselves?Qin ren? Hua ren? Han ren? What about Shang and Zhou dynasty? Can anyone here put a list of it? I'm still having confusion from previous discussion.

Hansaram · Aug 24, 2012

As far as I know, people from the Jiangnan region are supposed to be the most genetically pure Chinese, having kept their ancient bloodlines pure of foreign blood. Liu Xiang is from the Jiangnan region, and coincidentally (or not) he does look rather Tibetan.

The original Huaren and the Tibetans are probably the same ethnicity. But I think that changed after the Xianbei and subsequent Altaic invasions. The Chinese ruling class started to look more Altaic.

Even the Tang emperor was around 7/8ths Xianbei, although we can never be sure if the Tang royal house was ever Han in the first place.

Zoopiter · Aug 24, 2012

Hansaram said:
As far as I know, people from the Jiangnan region are supposed to be the most genetically pure Chinese, having kept their ancient bloodlines pure of foreign blood. Liu Xiang is from the Jiangnan region, and coincidentally (or not) he does look rather Tibetan.

The original Huaren and the Tibetans are probably the same ethnicity. But I think that changed after the Xianbei and subsequent Altaic invasions. The Chinese ruling class started to look more Altaic.

Even the Tang emperor was around 7/8ths Xianbei, although we can never be sure if the Tang royal house was ever Han in the first place.

How did you know the Tang emperor is 7/8 Xianbei and Chinese ruling class look like Altaic. I do know they are mixed origin but whether they are 7/8 Xianbei or not remain questionable. Beside, I don't think we have clear pictures on how ancient Chinese ruling class physically look like except for some ancient painting which can't really tell much. Altaic gene contribution is in small number as original Huaren/Chinese population have always outnumber Altaic population.

At the same time, in the north, most of the nomads in northern China came to be Sinicized as they ruled over large Chinese populations and adopted elements of Chinese culture and Chinese administration. Of note, the Xianbei rulers of the Northern Wei ordered a policy of systematic Sinicization, adopting Han surnames, institutions, and culture.

Han Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Tang emperors himself claim himself to be descendant of Li Gao who claim to be descendant of Li Guang of Han dynasty.

Li Yuan's seventh-generation ancestor was Li Gao, the founder of the Sixteen Kingdoms state Western Liang.

Emperor Gaozu of Tang - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Li Gao was born in 351, and was a posthumous child of his father Li Chang (李&#26166, who traced his ancestry to the Han Dynasty general Li Guang.

Li Gao - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Tang imperial family also presented themselves as Chinese. Furthermore, the Tang royal family generally embrace Han Chinese culture. For example, Tang emperor son who embrace Han Chinese culture were chosen by Taizong to be the next emperor. This is the case with Li Zhi, the third emperor of Tang dynasty.

Li was a Chinese name, and the Tang imperial family presented themselves as Chinese by descent, much as the Sui imperial family had.

http://books.google.com.my/books?id=XtmzFZS_SX0C&pg=PA76&dq=tang+dynasty+xianbei+or+chinese&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EtHeT_HBBYrUrQfAtoC5DQ&ved=0CFIQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=tang%20dynasty%20xianbei%20or%20chinese&f=false

Like the Sui, the Tang was founded by a powerful northern elite clan of mixed ethnic origins, but Taizong took care to base dynastic legitimacy on what he perceived to be the orthodox Han Chinese culture.

Taizong removed him from the position of heir apparent and chose his successor a younger son, Li Zhi who embraced Han Chinese culture.

http://books.google.com.my/books?id...i shimin han chinese culture orthodox&f=false

Hansaram · Aug 24, 2012

^You're a Malaysian Chinese. Do you have double eyelids or single eyelids? What part of China did your ancestors come from most recently?

Zoopiter · Aug 24, 2012

Hansaram said:
^You're a Malaysian Chinese. Do you have double eyelids or single eyelids?

How is double eyelid or single eyelid relevant to this topic?

Hansaram · Aug 24, 2012

It's important because I think you are taking this topic personally.

Zoopiter · Aug 24, 2012

Hansaram said:
It's important because I think you are taking this topic personally.

What make you think that? If you got problem with what I said I prefer if you argue with the point and refute it academically and provide references.

Hansaram · Aug 24, 2012

Zoopiter said:
What make you think that?

Experience..

It's really difficult to have an objective discussion with someone who is taking the topic personally.

mingming · Aug 24, 2012

I don't see how he's taking it personally.

Hansaram · Aug 24, 2012

mingming said:
I don't see how he's taking it personally.

That's nice, but I've seen this happen before, and it won't be productive to proceed until we get some common points of agreement.

Do you know there is a difference in the rate of single eyelids among northern and southern chinese? I really do wonder though, do most Malaysian Chinese have single or double eyelids?

mingming · Aug 24, 2012

Hansaram said:
That's nice, but I've seen this happen before, and it won't be productive to proceed until we get some common points of agreement.

This is what he wrote:

How did you know the Tang emperor is 7/8 Xianbei and Chinese ruling class look like Altaic. I do know they are mixed origin but whether they are 7/8 Xianbei or not remain questionable. Beside, I don't think we have clear pictures on how ancient Chinese ruling class physically look like except for some ancient painting which can't really tell much. Altaic gene contribution is in small number as original Huaren/Chinese population have always outnumber Altaic population.

As far as I can tell, he is asking very legitimate questions, so I don't see where he is taking this personally and what exactly we need to agree on. All he's asking is how did you know the Tang Emperor was 7/8 Xianbei? I think that's an easy enough question to answer.

Hansaram · Aug 24, 2012

mingming said:
This is what he wrote:

As far as I can tell, he is asking very legitimate questions, so I don't see where he is taking this personally and what exactly we need to agree on. All he's asking is how did you know the Tang Emperor was 7/8 Xianbei? I think that's an easy enough question to answer.

I find the question somewhat suspicious. He is not even comprehending what said very well. For example, I said the ruling classes started to look more Altaic, and he is trying to hammer the point that the Altaics were a minority. I need to find out what his intentions are first because I think he is taking this topic personally.

Check the ethnicities of the mothers of the Tang emperors if you're serious about this topic and not taking it personally.

Zoopiter · Aug 24, 2012

Hansaram said:
I find the question somewhat suspicious. He is not even comprehending what said very well. For example, I said the ruling classes started to look more Altaic, and he is trying to hammer the point that the Altaics were a minority. I need to find out what his intentions are first because I think he is taking this topic personally.

Check the ethnicities of the mothers of the Tang emperors if you're serious about this topic and not taking it personally.

How does saying Altaic is minority shows that I'm taking it personally especially when I'm speaking the truth . As for mother of Tang emperor, as far as I'm concern, only Empress Zhangsun has Xianbei blood. Why don't you provide references first.

mingming · Aug 24, 2012

Hansaram said:
I find the question somewhat suspicious. He is not even comprehending what said very well. For example, I said the ruling classes started to look more Altaic, and he is trying to hammer the point that the Altaics were a minority. I need to find out what his intentions are first because I think he is taking this topic personally.

Check the ethnicities of the mothers of the Tang emperors if you're serious about this topic and not taking it personally.

Anytime when you have a minority group marrying into a majority group, the majority group features will begin to take over. This is why the Mongols and the Manchus were so keen to segregate themselves. The Xianbei do not exist anymore because they have largely married into the Han ethnicity and disappeared. So given the amount of intermarriage between the Xianbei and the Han, then I can see why he made the point of them being a minority.

I know .... Dou and Empress Zhangsun had Xianbei blood, and the OP didn't deny that. All he is asking is how did you know they were 7/8th instead of say 1/5th.

Zoopiter · Aug 24, 2012

mingming said:
Anytime when you have a minority group marrying into a majority group, the majority group features will begin to take over. This is why the Mongols and the Manchus were so keen to segregate themselves. The Xianbei do not exist anymore because they have largely married into the Han ethnicity and disappeared. So given the amount of intermarriage between the Xianbei and the Han, then I can see why he made the point of them being a minority.

I know .... Dou and Empress Zhangsun had Xianbei blood, and the OP didn't deny that. All he is asking is how did you know they were 7/8th instead of say 1/5th.

Agree with you on how Altaic being minority in very small number and how the majority, Han Chinese take over.

I didn't know .... Dou also had Xianbei blood. However, I remember Yun from CHF once said Li Yuan is 75% Han and 25% Xiongnu while Tang Taizong (Li Shimin) would be 37.5% Xiongnu, 37.5% Han, and 25% Xianbei.

China Today said that it has not been proven yet that .... Dou is Xianbei. Only Empress Zhangsun are confirm to be Xianbei. Anyway, what do you think? From what I see so far, we do know Tang royal clan are of mixed origin but it seems the percentage Han and non Han blood of the emperors and the ethnicity of some of the empress seem still under debate and no conclusive answer have been reach yet.

There have been attempts by certain historians to determine whether or not Emperor Taizong, named Li Shimin, of the Tang Dynasty (618-907) and his mother had Xianbei origins. This has yet to be proved, but there is no doubt that Li Shimin was greatly influenced by his Xianbei wife, Empress Zhangsun, who helped him win the throne and assisted in the handling of state affairs.

http://www.chinatoday.com.cn/English/e2004/e200405/p54.htm

Hansaram · Aug 24, 2012

Anyway, your questions have been answer. Answer mine. Are you aware that there is a difference in the rate of single eyelids between Northern and Southern Chinese?

China Today said that it has not been proven yet that .... Dou is Xianbei. Only Empress Zhangsun are confirm to be Xianbei. Anyway, what do you think?

I just saw this now since you edited it. I don't know what to think. It's not even proven that the Emperor was really a Li or just adopted the surname. This is also in dispute. A lot of history is indefinite, we just make do with the evidence we have. Having said, I never pointed to an exact ratio. I said, "around 7/8ths".

Btw, I read a lot of Chinese history forum too.

avon · Aug 24, 2012

Hansaram said:
It's important because I think you are taking this topic personally.

Hansaram,

You're new here so please take a moment to read our Rules and Guidelines. Pay particular attention to the part that says 'Always be respectful'. We take that part very seriously and ask that our members do so as well. Please keep your mouth off of other folks and deal directly with the topic at hand.

Regards,
avon

Zoopiter · Aug 24, 2012

Hansaram said:
I just saw this now since you edited it. I don't know what to think. It's not even proven that the Emperor was really a Li or just adopted the surname. This is also in dispute.

Btw, I read a lot of Chinese history forum too.

It's been claim by Li Yuan himself which is the primary source itself. Some modern historians think Li Yuan make up his ancestry, however, it have not been proven by any modern day historians that Li Yuan make up or lie about his ancestry. Just like the theory .... Dou is Xianbei, the theory Li Yuan lie about his ancestry is just theory and speculation by modern historians not fact. In my opinion, the fact that Tang royal family embrace Han Chinese culture is good enough to convince me that they do in fact have Han/Li ancestry. Beside, you don't see any historians label Tang dynasty as conquest dynasties. Even the reference book I give also says ethnicity of Tang royal clan is Han. In other words, modern day scholars have not been able to prove that Li Yuan lie about his ancestry.

Hansaram · Aug 24, 2012

mingming said:
Anytime when you have a minority group marrying into a majority group, the majority group features will begin to take over. This is why the Mongols and the Manchus were so keen to segregate themselves. The Xianbei do not exist anymore because they have largely married into the Han ethnicity and disappeared. So given the amount of intermarriage between the Xianbei and the Han, then I can see why he made the point of them being a minority.

Genes do not disappear. Even if its a minority, they continue to spread, at a low percentage in the population. Anyway, that has nothing to do with what I was saying. You asked about the royal clans of each dynasty, so I was trying to talk to you about the ruling class of each dynasty. The reason I connect the Huaren and Tibetans is because of they are of the same language family, and also because of similarities in appearances. However, there is also a history of Xianbei invasions and we can see its impact. Northern Chinese have a higher rate of single eyelids than Southern Chinese, who migrated south to escape the invasions. If you look at the Mongols and Koreans, the rate of single eyelids is even higher. So there is this gradual continuum in the rate of this physical feature, which proves that the Altaic's did leave a significant legacy on China.

The ruling class of China started to look more altaic because the Xianbei, who were a Mongolic ethnicity, successfully integrated into the Chinese nobility.

I know .... Dou and Empress Zhangsun had Xianbei blood, and the OP didn't deny that. All he is asking is how did you know they were 7/8th instead of say 1/5th.

I knew because the mothers of three Tang emperors were Xianbei, according to accepted history. But of course we never know for 100% certain, so I said around 7/8ths.

Zoopiter said:
It's been claim by Li Yuan himself which is the primary source itself. Some modern historians think Li Yuan make up his ancestry, however, it have not been proven by any modern day historians that Li Yuan make up or lie about his ancestry. The idea Li Yuan lie about his ancestry is just theories and speculation by modern historians not fact. In my opinion, the fact that Tang royal family embrace Han Chinese culture is good enough to convince me that they do in fact have Han/Li ancestry. Beside, you don't see any historians label Tang dynasty as conquest dynasties. Even the reference book I give also says ethnicity of Tang royal clan is Han. In other words, modern day scholars have not been able to prove that Li Yuan lie about his ancestry.

Even if he wasn't lying, the royal house was still heavily Xianbeified.

Zoopiter · Aug 24, 2012

Hansaram said:
Genes do not disappear. Even if its a minority, they continue to spread, at a low percentage in the population. Anyway, that has nothing to do with what I was trying to argue. You asked about the royal clans of each dynasty, so I was trying to talk to you about the ruling class of each dynasty. The reason I connect the Huaren and Tibetans is because of they are of the same language family, and also because of similarities in appearances. However, there is also a history of Xianbei invasions and we can see its impact. Northern Chinese have a higher rate of single eyelids than Southern Chinese, who migrated south to escape the invasions. If you look at the Mongols and Koreans, the rate of single eyelids is even higher. So there is this gradual continuum in the rate of this physical feature, which proves that the Altaic's did leave quite a legacy on China.

I can agree with you that it's at low percentage. I have yet to see how Tibetan look like so I can't comment on it. Sound rather a subjective issues in my opinion. Can you provide statistics for the rate of single eyelids of northern Chinese and southern Chinese.

I knew because the mothers of three Tang emperors were Xianbei, according to accepted history. But of course we never know, so I said around 7/8ths.

Accepted history? Can you please provide citation and which empress are you talking about. So far only Empress Zhangsun are confirm to be Xianbei origin. Only one, not three. The ethnicity of other empress still debatable.

Even if he wasn't lying, the royal house was still heavily Xianbeified, most likely.

How did you know they are heavily Xianbified? I'm not saying there is no Xianbei influence but they are more Sinicized more than anything. They have Chinese names and even the third emperor Li Zhi were chosen to be successor because he embrace Han Chinese culture. If a prince were chosen to be emperor just because he embrace Han Chinese culture, that tells a lot and clearly shows they are sinicized. Even Taizong took care to base dynastic legitimacy on what he perceived to be the orthodox Han Chinese culture.

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