Free will & an omniscient creator god?

ib-issi said:

Surely until we know all there is to know ,we have no idea if anything happens without a reason, or for no reason,but we are told a fundamental truth is that there is no action without reaction,but this is an outcome , not a reason . if you can seperate as you have above intellectual reason and physical reason ,then although we do not have all the answers yet to explain physical reason , we do know we have intellectual reason/free will, as long as we are prepared to accept the responsibilities that society has decided to place on us for exercising that free will.

during the war for instance there were conscientious objectors who used their free will not to be the cause of death of other humans ,they were made to pay man made consequences for that choice , but it was made on their own free will

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laketahoejwb said:

This above is not "Free Will" as given by the Good Lord. Free will is the opportunity to choose between good and evil. Adam choose this for all of us, now we all die and are sent out to nature for subsistance. This is not punishment, this is being returned to nature.

Lake

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ib-issi said:

Well i think it is using there free will , those objectors were choosing what they saw as good over evil , ie going to war to kill or not ,i know what you believe is that Adam went against God , and chose to do something that God told him not to do , so i presume what god did then is sent Adam and eve to Earth from Heaven , and said only those who do my will without question can remain here , and you can only come back if you only do good without exception, OK have your free will if you want it , make your own decisions, and now lets see how many of you can be good enough to come back .

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Charlie Bravo said:

It was angels who rebelled against God's law and plunged our system into darkness. They have free will just like we do.

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laketahoejwb said:

char:

No, no. Adam did it and he was very human. .....Lake

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Charlie Bravo said:

The Lucifer Rebellion happened thousands of years before Adam appeared on Earth. Adam and Eve's failure to do what they were supposed to on Earth is directly related to this rebellion. Your own holy book speaks of this war in Heaven, in the book of Ezekiel.

Adam and Eve defaulted on their task, but Lucifer and his lieutenants set the stage.

Oh, and Adam wasn't human, at least, he wasn't a normal human.

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laketahoejwb said:

charlie:

Lucifer was a Angel entity not human, and was created by the Good Lord to be Satan and is in the Adam and Eve story portrayed as a snake. The choice between good and evil is the choice between God and Lucifer. Eventually, God will toss Lucifer into hell to suffer for all of eternity.

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Goose Springsteen said:

Hey Guys,

I don't necessarily want to get into a discussion relating to the existence or non existence of free will here. Instead I want to look at how those who beleive in free will and an omniscient creator god can reconcile the two?

If there are any flaws in my line of reasoning please feel free to pick me up on them but here is my case on why it seems to me that the two are mutually exclusive.

An omniscient creator God (who is also omnipotent) has the distinction of not only being able to create anything in any way it chooses but it also has the capacity to foresee the consequences of any possible creation that it may consider and being omniscient that means all of them! Therefore in the act of creating in a particular way they are surely simply enacting a chain of events that are for all intents and purposes deterministic?

This isn't necessarily a problem but when you consider it alongside for example the Christian world view of the reasons behind mankind's current condition (freedom of choice and personal accountability) it seems to raise a pretty big issue? (Calvinism aside!).

I appreciate this is probably a bit inelegantly worded but I hope what I am getting at is apparent!

I really appreciate any and all feedback .

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Charlie Bravo said:

Our books tell different stories, but even your book never says one time that the serpent in your Creation myth is Satan. It says quite plainly that the serpent is a wild animal, and never once does it mention it being anything more than that.

That being said, no matter what story you believe, angels have just as much free will as humans.

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Charlie Bravo said:

I know what your holy book says, Lake, I've studied it extensively. Mine has a different take on it all, and it has no talking snakes, pits of Hell, and men made from dirt, but nevertheless, neither book indicates that angels don't have free will.

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Piscator said:

Charlie, I'm surprised. It seems obvious to me that men are made from dirt. If men are not made from dirt (dirt can include all the elements of the periodic table) then what are they made from? Perhaps I am not understanding what you mean?

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Charlie Bravo said:

I mean God didn't literally scoop up some dirt, shape it into a man shape and breathe life into it.

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Charlie Bravo said:

I know what your holy book says, Lake, I've studied it extensively. Mine has a different take on it all, and it has no talking snakes, pits of Hell, and men made from dirt, but nevertheless, neither book indicates that angels don't have free will.

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