French Connections of James II

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James II, the Duke of York, was strongly influenced by his French mother (Henrietta) and by his period of exile in France before the restoration of his brother Charles II as king of England. I have found abundant documentation of James' activities during his first exile period (1648-1660). I would like to find more details about any time spent in France after the Restoration but before he became king (i.e., 1660 - 1885).


So far I have found only this reference indicating that James II toured Europe in 1681:


“He [James II] was touched to hear of the conversion at Macao of ‘a little blinking [Chinese] fellow’ named Michael, and sought to make his acquaintance when he toured Europe in 1681.”


(John Callow, 2000, The Making of King James II (The Formative Year of a Fallen King), page 149)


I assume that James would have gone to France and visited his mother (and other royals) during his 1681 tour of Europe and I would like to find details of that trip.


And also, if there were any other visits to France in that period (between the exiles)?


Thanks in advance for any help provided in learning more about the French connections of James II.
 
Joined Mar 2014
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Beneath a cold sun, a grey sun, a Heretic sun...
James II, the Duke of York, was strongly influenced by his French mother (Henrietta) and by his period of exile in France before the restoration of his brother Charles II as king of England. I have found abundant documentation of James' activities during his first exile period (1648-1660). I would like to find more details about any time spent in France after the Restoration but before he became king (i.e., 1660 - 1885).


So far I have found only this reference indicating that James II toured Europe in 1681:


“He [James II] was touched to hear of the conversion at Macao of ‘a little blinking [Chinese] fellow’ named Michael, and sought to make his acquaintance when he toured Europe in 1681.”


(John Callow, 2000, The Making of King James II (The Formative Year of a Fallen King), page 149)


I assume that James would have gone to France and visited his mother (and other royals) during his 1681 tour of Europe and I would like to find details of that trip.


And also, if there were any other visits to France in that period (between the exiles)?


Thanks in advance for any help provided in learning more about the French connections of James II.

Did he go to France during his second exile? My understanding is he spent time in Brussels and then Edinburgh.
 
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Thanks for the reply.

My question is limited to the period between the two exiles (1660 - 1685), since this period could have had a major influence on him when he became king of England.

By the time of the second, later exile that you have cited, his fate as monarch had been determined (unfortunately for him).

Thanks again for your interest in my question.
 
Joined Mar 2014
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Beneath a cold sun, a grey sun, a Heretic sun...
Thanks for the reply.

My question is limited to the period between the two exiles (1660 - 1685), since this period could have had a major influence on him when he became king of England.

By the time of the second, later exile that you have cited, his fate as monarch had been determined (unfortunately for him).

Thanks again for your interest in my question.

By "second exile" I refer to the period of the Exclusion Crisis when Charles II sent him out of the Kingdom.

Anyway, I'll look back through the book I'm reading now - I believe he had some contact with the French while he was still Admiral of the Fleet. I'll see what I can dig up.
 
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That makes perfect sense. Thanks for the clarification.

Again, my primary interest is in identifying any direct contacts he may have had in France prior to his own kingship. So the "Exclusion Crisis" that you have cited could be very relevant if he journeyed to France at that time.

The other reference that I have found (of a tour of Europe in 1681 that I cited) is also of prime interest to me since that would also have been a wonderful opportunity for such contact in France, if he actually visited there during the trip.
 
Joined Oct 2013
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Montreal, QC
James II, the Duke of York, was strongly influenced by his French mother (Henrietta) and by his period of exile in France before the restoration of his brother Charles II as king of England. I have found abundant documentation of James' activities during his first exile period (1648-1660). I would like to find more details about any time spent in France after the Restoration but before he became king (i.e., 1660 - 1885).

Welcome to Historum! :) The Mid-to-Late Stuarts I consider to be my specialty, so I'll see if I can help you out. You're correct -- James' and Charles' stay in France during their first exile did influence them both. That's why Charles' court was so shockingly new when he came back, what with waistcoats, periwigs, high heels, mirrors, all sorts of silver finery and sedan chairs.


So far I have found only this reference indicating that James II toured Europe in 1681:


“He [James II] was touched to hear of the conversion at Macao of ‘a little blinking [Chinese] fellow’ named Michael, and sought to make his acquaintance when he toured Europe in 1681.”


(John Callow, 2000, The Making of King James II (The Formative Year of a Fallen King), page 149)

James' exile in both very Catholic France and Spain may have very well been one of the factors in his own conversion. It certainly wasn't for his own good. He converted on a personally moral level, because it really didn't help his public image nor his political standing. However, it's of worth to note the Treaty of Dover between King Charles II and King Louis XIV in 1670. The treaty entailed that, if Charles and England converted to Catholicism, Louis and France would supply England with money, which would be particularly helpful seeing as Charles managed to drain the coffers. England would also have to help France in war against the Dutch. The Treaty was never carried out. Maybe I'm grasping at threads, but I think that this Anglo-French deal may have had influence on James, his view of the French, and Catholicism.

This is prior to the Restoration, but James was part of the French army during his first exile, then fought the French when he joined the Spanish army some time later. And, if I recall correctly, James' tour of Europe was caused by his brother the King putting him in exile for some time.


I assume that James would have gone to France and visited his mother (and other royals) during his 1681 tour of Europe and I would like to find details of that trip.


And also, if there were any other visits to France in that period (between the exiles)?


Thanks in advance for any help provided in learning more about the French connections of James II.

Henrietta-Maria died in 1669, which was before James went on any tours, so he could not have visited her. James, his wife Mary, and James lived in exile in France as guests of Louis XIV, so he did parley with the French royalty at that time. I have the aforementioned book on James II, so I'll later do some digging to find more about his tours. :)
 
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Thanks gladiatrice. So very helpful.

The religious and political influences that James and Charles would have encountered is exactly the type of information I am seeking in terms of specific information (people, places, and times).

I do have a couple of questions on Charles' exile in France (along these same lines), but I guessing it would best to post them in their own thread?
 
Joined Oct 2013
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Montreal, QC
Thanks gladiatrice. So very helpful.

The religious and political influences that James and Charles would have encountered is exactly the type of information I am seeking in terms of specific information (people, places, and times).

I do have a couple of questions on Charles' exile in France (along these same lines), but I guessing it would best to post them in their own thread?

If you think it's best to make a new thread, sure! And no problem, this is my favorite era.
 
Joined Mar 2014
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Beneath a cold sun, a grey sun, a Heretic sun...
Ah, I thought our (other) resident Jacobite would make an appearance. ;)

I can find no reference to James ever visiting France between the Restoration and the Glorious Revolution. He did have a serious falling out with Henrietta-Maria over his marriage to Anne Hyde, so it's unlikely he would have made that trip just to see her anyway. I believe he last saw her when she left England in 1661.

If he had any intentions of visiting France, I'm fairly certain Charles would have forbidden it, particularly after his conversion to Catholicism and most especially after the "Popish Plots". Such a visit would only have further fuelled anti-Catholic suspicions then rampant and would only have made Charles' reign even more difficult.
 
Joined Oct 2013
3,463 Posts | 12+
Montreal, QC
Ah, I thought our (other) resident Jacobite would make an appearance. ;)

I can find no reference to James ever visiting France between the Restoration and the Glorious Revolution. He did have a serious falling out with Henrietta-Maria over his marriage to Anne Hyde, so it's unlikely he would have made that trip just to see her anyway. I believe he last saw her when she left England in 1661.

If he had any intentions of visiting France, I'm fairly certain Charles would have forbidden it, particularly after his conversion to Catholicism and most especially after the "Popish Plots". Such a visit would only have further fuelled anti-Catholic suspicions then rampant and would only have made Charles' reign even more difficult.

Whenever someone mentions the Stuarts, moreso the Stuart brothers, I'm going to be there. :) I never knew you had Jacobite sympathies, I know now that you're of a good stock!

Henrietta-Maria was a strange woman; she was so Catholic that she actually condemned one of her children, Henry, when he refused to convert from Protestantism to Catholicism. Henry was honouring his late father's final demand to stay true to the Protestant church, and we know that Henrietta-Maria knew this, as her daughter, Elizabeth, told her. Dismal Jimmy (James' nickname, given to him by Nell Gwynne) had a falling out with everyone over his marriage to Anne Hyde. Edward Hyde (Anne's father) and Charles both said no; Edward said he would rather lock his daughter up in the Tower or even have her dead instead of her marrying James! Even though no one else wanted him to, James really still wanted to marry Anne. His solution? He got Anne Hyde pregnant, and then asked for marriage again. :lol: Charles finally complied, but I don't think Clarendon (Edward Hyde) was that happy! :zany:

A quote by Sam Pepys is apt here: "The Duke of York in all things but in his codpiece, is led by the nose by his wife." :)
 
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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Since my questions about Charles II are similar to those for his brother, I will go ahead and post them in this thread. My only previous experience in online forums has been in technical support (PHP and MySQL) where this would be a big no-no, so please set me straight if this needs its own thread.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As with James II, I am interested in how Charles II was affected by his exile abroad (and especially any French influences) while Cromwell was in power. It appears that Charles lived in France for at least the first three years of his exile, and then may have moved around quite a bit. From what I have read so far, here is an outline of his whereabouts during his exile:[/FONT]


  • [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]October 16, 6/51 – landed in Normandy and went to Paris where he stayed at St. Germain until June 1654, living with difficulty on a grant from Louis XIV of 600 livres a month.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]April, 1654 - visited his sister, the Princess of Orange, at Spa, and went to Aix-la-Chapelle, thence finally proceeding in November to Cologne.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1656 - entered into an alliance with Spain—an enemy of France. [/FONT]
  • [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]April, 1656 - went to Bruges, and on the 7th of February 1658 to Brussels.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]August, 1659 - awaited the result of the royalist uprising on the coast of Brittany, but with its defeat, proceeded to Fuenterrabia on the Spanish frontier.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]December, 1659 - returned to Brussels in December, visiting his mother at Paris on the way.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]April, 1660 - left Brussels for Breda, and issued the declaration of an amnesty. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I am interested in details of his living arrangements and the people he may have interacted with (including his numerous love affairs) during his exile.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I am particularly curious if he was ever in physical danger, either from Cromwell's spies and agents, or from the French (after he pledged his alliance with Spain in 1656). [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Information on any of this, or recommendations of books or other resources that discuss these matters, would be greatly appreciated.[/FONT]
 
Joined Sep 2013
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Interesting topic. That said, it is important to always remember that Louis XIV was both Charles II and James II's younger first cousin.

The ruling elites of that time had more in common with each other than they did with the average (Protestant) Englishman.

Although I am a big fan of the "ungrateful" Stuart daughters, I could never be a supporter of that psychopath James II. Thank goodness for the Glorious Revolution.


guy also known as gaius
 
Joined Sep 2013
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A quote by Sam Pepys is apt here: "The Duke of York in all things but in his codpiece, is led by the nose by his wife." :)

From what I've read, James II converted to Catholicism only after his wife Anne Hyde had earlier. I wonder what were the discussions surrounding this conversion. I was always confused by Anne's conversion since her father (the Earl of Clarendon) was a staunch Anglican (although he was always more tolerant than depicted by history).


guy also known as gaius

Addendum:

A somewhat related thread on the "Popish plot."

http://historum.com/european-history/64933-plot-never.html
 
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Bart, thanks for the stimulating thoughts. A couple of questions:

1. In pointing out that Louis XIV was the younger relation, are you suggesting that James II connection with France was more a matter of his influence on the French court (rather than being the one influenced)? If so, can you provide any details or point me to sources that discuss his interactions with his relatives in the French monarchy?

2. Are you suggesting that during any trips that James II made to Europe (after the first exile) would likely have included a visit with his royal relatives? If so, do you have any specifics about his trips to the continent in 1679 and 1681 that might involve French connections in his itinerary?

3. "psychopath James II" Interesting diagnosis. :) Passive/aggressive, perhaps? The way he manipulated his way into his first marriage was masterfully passive/aggressive.
 
Joined Oct 2013
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Montreal, QC
I'll tackle your questions one by one, Dave, and I hope I give clear enough answers. If need be, I'll elaborate. :)

Effects of Charles' exile: Charles' French exile had many effects on him. One of the most outstanding of them was his court. When Charles arrived from the Continent for his Restoration, he brought along a lot of alien, French finery. His court was worryingly French -- and Catholic! The very fashion Charles brought back with him echoed his stay in Paris. Men wore great big curly wigs, stockings, and high heels. Mirrors, sedan chairs, and all other sorts of continental riches were installed into the English court. One of Charles' later mistresses, Louise de Kérouaille, was sent by Louis XIV and was proclaimed to be a French spy! However, Charles did not only bring fashion and tradition back with him from exile. It was on a much more personal level with him, as well. Almost right away, he favoured Catholicism over the Protestant masses. This makes sense; the very people that gave him shelter when he was on the Continent were Catholics, and earlier, the Scottish Covenanters (a very strict Protestant) had made life miserable for him, forcing him to betray his family and give up his beliefs in some aspects, all to secure his throne. Charles' time in France also made him somewhat of an autocrat; he wanted to rule alone. Louis XIV had absolute power, and Charles I had it for around 11 years. Charles II finally managed to dissolve Parliament in 1681 and ruled on his own for the next and last 4 years of his reign. Charles also seemed to be dependent on his cousin Louis. As aforementioned, Charles made an extremely controversial and extremely Catholic deal with Louis in 1670, the Treaty of Dover. Since Charles had whiled away the English money, and since France had its coffers full of -- albeit French and Catholic -- gold, he soon began to use that French money. Keep in mind that Charles' mother was also French. Charles' time abroad exposed him to different religious, political, and fashion ideas, all of which he brought to England with him. Charles' behaviour was even likened to Louis XIV at one point, proving that Charles seemed to be perhaps mimicking his totalitarian cousin across the Channel.

Living arrangements and people: Charles met a lot of people during his exile. However, I'm not going to start in France. Instead, I'll start after the Battle of Worcester, wherein his army way absolutely crushed by Oliver Cromwell's forces. Charles was in grave danger here, which I'll elaborate on in the next part of this post. Charles first was hidden up an oak tree to escape any immediate danger. No doubt it was absolutely traumatising at the time, but Charles absolutely loved to tell anyone who would listen about this story. His mistresses and courtiers heard it ad nauseum and grew very bored of it. Charles was then stashed away into a succession of priest-holes; tiny holes where Catholic families would stash their priests and unsavoury ecclesiastical relics when the Protestant authorities came looking for any popish activities. Charles reported that this made him very claustrophobic. The holes were extremely tight, and I doubt I could even fit into one comfortably at my height, 5'4. Charles was exactly a foot taller than I, so we can only imagine how awful it was to be stuck in there overnight while you knew your enemies were thick all around. Catholic, Royalist families took care of him as he made his way to France. One remarkable woman that helped bundle him away to France was Jane Lane. When Charles reached Boscobel House, where Jane lived, he was fed, cleaned, and given new clothing. After he rested and was ready to keep on going, she helped him first escape by disguising him. She cut off his long hair to be short, dirtied his hands and face with pitch, and had him ride on her horse with her as the wound their way to safety. Jane would always explain that Charles was her man-servant if they got caught. An extra measure of safety was added, as well. Henry, Viscount Wilmot (Later 1st Earl of Rochester) walked some space ahead and Charles and Jane and was prepared to say that they were out hunting if any Parliamentary forces happened to question them. It's of worth to mention one of his first amours, Lucy Walter, in the mid-1640s. The product of this relationship was James Scott, Duke of Monmouth, who would later rise up in a very scrappy rebellion in an attempt to overthrow and/or kill his uncle, King James II. Monmouth did not have a happy childhood. When Lucy became extremely possessive over Monmouth, Charles and she had a huge falling out, and Charles took his son back. Lucy lapsed into a life of prostitution and died of venereal disease. If I recall correctly, Charles also met Hortense Mancini when he was in France. She was to become one of his most controversial mistresses when she came to England in the 1670s. Charles had several fights with his brother, James, on the Continent, and James was volleyed back and forth between loyalties; to Spain, to France, to his brother.

Was Charles ever in danger?: Yes, Charles was often in danger, especially after Worcester! His first move was to be stashed up an oak tree with one of his generals. Charles fell asleep for most of it (he had that special talent to fall asleep anywhere at any time, even in church), which did put him in danger. As he had his head on William Carlos' lap, William's legs started to go numb and he began to pinch Charles to wake him up, lest he fall from the tree. For a whole day and night was Charles in the tree. Charles told Samuel Pepys in 1680 that Roundhead soldiers passed directly underneath him, but they were looking all around, anywhere but up. That was extremely terrifying and also extremely dangerous. Another instance where Charles was in legitimate danger was when he was riding with his troops. A Roundhead sharp shooter took out Charles' horse from underneath him. The King fell and the horse died, but Charles was for the most part okay, so he got up to jump on a second horse... Which was also shot out from underneath him. Multiple times did he almost die! When he went into town (I can't recall which) to get something, he noticed people were loudly celebrating. When he asked why, someone replied, "Haven't you heard? That rogue Charles Stuart is dead!" There was also a massive bounty on his head, over £1000 in their time, which would be in the millions today, if not more. Anyone who helped him would be executed for treason, but Catholics always tended to see him to safety. Doubtless Charles was still in danger on the Continent, what with all the shifting waves of politics and intrigue.
 
Joined Oct 2013
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Bart, thanks for the stimulating thoughts. A couple of questions:

1. In pointing out that Louis XIV was the younger relation, are you suggesting that James II connection with France was more a matter of his influence on the French court (rather than being the one influenced)? If so, can you provide any details or point me to sources that discuss his interactions with his relatives in the French monarchy?

James didn't influence the French court, the French court influenced him. James was more involved in military affairs at that time. And Louis really wasn't that much younger than his English cousins -- he was born in 1638, making him 5 years younger than James and 8 years younger than Charles. Louis' and Henrietta-Maria's Catholicism certainly did influence James, this we know. But I'm not sure that James influenced Louis.

2. Are you suggesting that during any trips that James II made to Europe (after the first exile) would likely have included a visit with his royal relatives? If so, do you have any specifics about his trips to the continent in 1679 and 1681 that might involve French connections in his itinerary?

I've searched far and wide, and nothing has come up pertaining to this. James wrote his own autobiography, which would have been rich in these essential details, but it was deliberately burned, page by page, after the French Revolution. Maybe Bart or Tercios can find some information on James' Continental trips, but I'm coming up blank.
 
Joined Sep 2013
354 Posts | 31+
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Bart, thanks for the stimulating thoughts. A couple of questions:


3. "psychopath James II" Interesting diagnosis. :) Passive/aggressive, perhaps? The way he manipulated his way into his first marriage was masterfully passive/aggressive.

I will think more about the first two questions before answering.

The last question I can answer now, however.

James II personally observed and ordered much of the torture and murder associated with the Killing Time:


[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Killing_Time"]The Killing Time - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]



guy also known as gaius
 
Joined Oct 2013
3,463 Posts | 12+
Montreal, QC
I will think more about the first two questions before answering.

The last question I can answer now, however.

James II personally observed and ordered much of the torture and murder associated with the Killing Time:


The Killing Time - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



guy also known as gaius

Maybe I'm blind, I don't see anything about James II enjoying the torture? It was an awful time, though, I admit, even though I am a Jacobite and in staunch support of the Stuarts.
 
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Gladiatrice: Thanks so much for the details, especially in the first section about the French influence he brought back during the Restoration. Besides the lifestyle items, it does seem that he must of had a close relationship with his cousin Louis XIV and probably the rest of the royal family during his exile there. I do kind of wonder how the rest of the people, especially the nonroyals interacted with him, if they did to any extent.

I was aware of some of the details about the dangers he faced while still in England just before he made it to France. But you have really filled that out nicely. I do wonder if he felt totally safe in France during the entire exile or if he (or those close to him) were still looking over their shoulder a bit -- or if just being in France for those first couple of years insured his safety.

Thanks again for your thoughtful and thorough reply.
 
Joined Oct 2013
3,463 Posts | 12+
Montreal, QC
I will later respond to your questions -- other people and Charles' safety -- in depth later, but it does look interesting and I'll think upon it. :) And no problem, like I said I love the Stuarts and their times, it's always a pleasure to help someone else who's curious about them.
 

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