I disagree the demoralization and surrender followed comprehensive military defeat but one where the French army generally fought well.
french surrender a strategy?
- Thread starter sixmax
- Start date
Depends on what you mean. You have to discern between the military situation and the political situation.
There's no issue that France was comprehensively defeated in 1940. The issue is whether it was because it was in fact outmanouvered and outfought, or if it was demoralized beforehand and so defeated because of that?
There were many problems the defeat of may 1940 was a perfect storm.
The response of the German army and French army from their analysis of the First World War were pretty polar opposites. The Germans developed mission tactics and emphasis on quick action, the French methodological battle, slow set piece doctrine.
The Germans viewed communications an essential, and focus of their development, the French did not.
The French had two competing HQs communicating by dispatch rider.
The French were going to take longer to react to a dynamically changing situation.
The French strategic plan, kept no reserves and pushed their best and most mobile units deep into Belgium and some on to Holland,
The German sickle cut strategy made the French plan the worst possible counter plan.
The Germans benefited from recent experience in Spain and Poland.
The response of the German army and French army from their analysis of the First World War were pretty polar opposites. The Germans developed mission tactics and emphasis on quick action, the French methodological battle, slow set piece doctrine.
The Germans viewed communications an essential, and focus of their development, the French did not.
The French had two competing HQs communicating by dispatch rider.
The French were going to take longer to react to a dynamically changing situation.
The French strategic plan, kept no reserves and pushed their best and most mobile units deep into Belgium and some on to Holland,
The German sickle cut strategy made the French plan the worst possible counter plan.
The Germans benefited from recent experience in Spain and Poland.
Joined Mar 2019
3,592 Posts | 2,048+
Kansas
Well the demoralization was really a top down situation. Churchill noted during his May 16th visit to Paris that French officials had already started burning archives and seemed completely clueless on what to do next.
De Gaulle who proved he could go toe to toe with the Germans in tactics and operational needs, was opposed every time he made a suggestion to the government about how to conduct operations in the second half of the campaign. I dont think ultimately the French could have realistically won given the overwhelming air superiority the Germans now enjoyed. But I think the French still could have still landed some nice throat punches before going down.
Joined Oct 2013
24,148 Posts | 6,119+
Europix
That's toro mierda, Caballero.
France surrender because it's army was annihilated. Not because some psiho-pu-pou-collectictive-IDW.
A nation that suffers of all "Freudian-Socialistic-ilnesses" You suggest doesn't see it's soldiers marching dozens of miles by night and fighting by day, and for weeks. It doesn't rebuilt an army outside its lost territory, an army that fights bare-footed as its allies don't believe in them any longer, it doesn't rise from dead up to being one of the victors.
España es la mejor ... no significa que Francia sea una mierda ...
Joined Mar 2019
3,592 Posts | 2,048+
Kansas
Yes we really only need to research the efforts of the French resistance movement through the occupation to see how much of a pacifist the average Frenchmen became
Joined Oct 2013
24,148 Posts | 6,119+
Europix
Yes we really only need to research the efforts of the French resistance movement through the occupation to see how much of a pacifist the average Frenchmen became
There are couple of guys that marched more than 100 km in two days, entered directly in battle in Belgium, orderly retreated (as I said, keeping their positions the day and retreating to the new ones by night), ended encircled in Lille, where from they managed to escape and make it to Dunkerque (where they saw a third of them sunken dead by German planes), departure from Britain back for France, only to be encircled again, somehow escaped it, crossed all France and Spain down to Morocco were they joined de Gaule's new army.
Some of them lived enough to participate to the Liberation of France.
Just a random example of some small people doing not what they're expected to but much more. But small people have small stories, and that doesn't interest many.
Joined Mar 2019
3,592 Posts | 2,048+
Kansas
I could not agree more. I recall seeing footage of Parisians (when the Germans were evacuating Paris) Dropping burning mattresses from upper story windows of houses as the open top German trucks full of troops were driving by. I will never know any of those peoples names, their fate after the camera stopped rolling. But boy what a great way to extract a little revenge using no more than old mattress and a lite cigarette.
I think it can be a fatal mistake to underestimate anybody when you threaten their home. No matter what nation or culture they may belong to!
Joined Dec 2015
9,459 Posts | 1,223+
As far as the mind can reach
It was NOT like the French was totally a sitting duck; the casualty and cost was still fairly substantial for the Germans.
The 0 casualty on any sides is rare, and the Battle of Blood River is one of the best example:
Battle of Blood River - Wikipedia
Thats AFTER they were beaten. The campaign was virtually over barring the shouting with the BEF, and most of the best French troops cut off, that vast loss of material and equipment ., The Germans had overwhelming numbers at th epiont. Having suffered a massive defeat that piut them petty much in an impossible military situation in matter of days yeah the French were in a state of shock. I woul dnot place too much relaince of De Gualle he has to poprtay the reigme as bad and shore up his creditinals for a competing Government., he was a junior officer,.
Demoralization followed defeat. It did not precede or cause it.
Joined Jul 2011
11,340 Posts | 2,849+
De Gaulle was a colonel, which is generally considered a senior officer, but he had no role in the general strategy, etc. Petain was a marshal. Petain headed a German puppet French government and De Gualle headed a British puppet German government. De Gualle was very egotistical, and probably indicated he was using correct tactics and his approach was ignored, etc.
Sorry but the idea that De Gaulle was anybodies puppet is wildly mistaken. The history books are full of clashes between him and the other Allied leaders - Roosevelt hated him, Churchill had mixed feelings (mostly negative as the war went on), and both regarded him as more trouble than he was worth. It was because of the bad relationship between the allies there were no French forces initially involved in the liberation of France (barely 200 French troops landed on D-Day and there were only 5 squadrons of aircraft involved).
Free France forces on D-Day
Free France forces on D-Day in Normandy Ground forces On June 6, 1944, the Free French land forces deployed on Sword Beach are composed of two troops and
www.dday-overlord.com
If De Gaulle had been a puppet he would have been replace quite early in the war.
That was what Vichy claimed (it sentenced de Gaulle to death in absentia for treason), and the US WWII government agreed with it. Subsequent events proved them both wrong.
Joined Jul 2011
11,340 Posts | 2,849+
As a matter of semantics, lieutenants and captains are generally considered junior officers. Colonels, brigadiers, general officers, and marshals are senior officers. It was junior in that he couldn't have had that big a role in the Battle of France, and in that he was a surprise to lead a rival French government.
Pre-WWII de Gaulle was already a kind of celebrity in military circles. Wags would out it that he certainly was cut out for the "Academie", by which they did not mean the "École militaire" but the "Academie française", since he wrote a lot, in a punchy style . (Just one of the aspects in which de Gaille and Churchill resembled each other.)
He had been hired already as Pétain's ghost-writer – except the arrangement fell apart when it became apparent that de Gaulle still insisted on writing what HE thought, not necessarily what Pétain wanted.
And Pétain had interceded to bump up his grades from the military academy to give him the kind of possible career trajectory Pétain thought he should have.
And he had cause a scandal when invited to give a series of lectures on the future of combat (armoured and mobile) at the École militaire, which had ended with his posting in the colonies overseas to get everyone out of embarassment. (Never actually went there though iirc.)
So de Gaulle was clearly a man to watch, not just militarily, already before WWII. Then it didn't hurt him that he actually got to put some of his ideas about armoured warfare to the test in 1940, and did well enough to earn a temporary brigadeer's grade, and a spot as a junior minster in the last Reynaud government before the roof caved in, and de Gaulle hopped on a plane to London to keep fighting.
He had been hired already as Pétain's ghost-writer – except the arrangement fell apart when it became apparent that de Gaulle still insisted on writing what HE thought, not necessarily what Pétain wanted.
And Pétain had interceded to bump up his grades from the military academy to give him the kind of possible career trajectory Pétain thought he should have.
And he had cause a scandal when invited to give a series of lectures on the future of combat (armoured and mobile) at the École militaire, which had ended with his posting in the colonies overseas to get everyone out of embarassment. (Never actually went there though iirc.)
So de Gaulle was clearly a man to watch, not just militarily, already before WWII. Then it didn't hurt him that he actually got to put some of his ideas about armoured warfare to the test in 1940, and did well enough to earn a temporary brigadeer's grade, and a spot as a junior minster in the last Reynaud government before the roof caved in, and de Gaulle hopped on a plane to London to keep fighting.
Joined Mar 2019
3,592 Posts | 2,048+
Kansas
I believe his intention was to get to North Africa and try to organize a Free French force capable of continuing the fight. Unfortunately it did not work out for him
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