Good Ming Dynasty Resources.

bunnyman987 · Apr 7, 2014

Do you ...... and gentlemen know any good books, websites or documentaries etc. On Ming China.

Thank You

Haakbus · Apr 7, 2014

Do you mean the general history of Ming? Military history?

bunnyman987 · Apr 7, 2014

Haakbus said:
Do you mean the general history of Ming? Military history?

I would like any resources you know of, on either the Military or general history, thank you.

YouLoveMeYouKnowIt · Apr 7, 2014

Dragon's Head and a Serpent's Tail.

1421 is a best seller but... China didn't discover America

f0ma · Apr 8, 2014

YouLoveMeYouKnowIt said:
Dragon's Head and a Serpent's Tail.

1421 is a best seller but... China didn't discover America

Swope has been largely discredited by the academic community for both his attitude and poor appliance of historical methods.

I'd recommend Timothy Brook.

stevapalooza · Apr 8, 2014

Have you checked out the China History Forum? They have different forums for each period of Chinese history. Lots of smart folks hanging around.

China History Forum, Online Chinese History Forum

bunnyman987 · Apr 8, 2014

stevapalooza said:
Have you checked out the China History Forum? They have different forums for each period of Chinese history. Lots of smart folks hanging around.

China History Forum, Online Chinese History Forum

Not yet, I'll check it out.

bunnyman987 · Apr 8, 2014

YouLoveMeYouKnowIt said:
Dragon's Head and a Serpent's Tail.

1421 is a best seller but... China didn't discover America

Thank you I just ordered. [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Dragons-Head-Serpents-Tail-Commanders/dp/0806140569"]A Dragon's Head and a Serpent's Tail: Ming China and the First Great East Asian War, 1592-1598 (Campaigns and Commanders Series): Dr. Kenneth M. Swope Ph.D: 9780806140568: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ekoR0kAQL.@@AMEPARAM@@51ekoR0kAQL[/ame]

Haakbus · Apr 8, 2014

A Dragon's Head and a Serpent's Tail is fairly good as far as I know, but Swope is somewhat biased toward the Chinese view of the war. Just be careful about taking what he says as fact.

Also, CHF seems to be quite high quality.

bunnyman987 · Apr 8, 2014

Haakbus said:
A Dragon's Head and a Serpent's Tail is fairly good as far as I know, but Swope is somewhat biased toward the Chinese view of the war. Just be careful about taking what he says as fact.

Also, CHF seems to be quite high quality.

f0ma said:
Swope has been largely discredited by the academic community for both his attitude and poor appliance of historical methods.

I'd recommend Timothy Brook.

I will keep this in mind.

YouLoveMeYouKnowIt · Apr 8, 2014

bunnyman987 said:
Thank you I just ordered. A Dragon's Head and a Serpent's Tail: Ming China and the First Great East Asian War, 1592-1598 (Campaigns and Commanders Series): Dr. Kenneth M. Swope Ph.D: 9780806140568: Amazon.com: Books

As others say, read this with care it is pro-Ming. The good thing though is that it is only one I know that used Ming sources and perspective.

mingming · Apr 9, 2014

Haakbus said:
A Dragon's Head and a Serpent's Tail is fairly good as far as I know, but Swope is somewhat biased toward the Chinese view of the war. Just be careful about taking what he says as fact.

Also, CHF seems to be quite high quality.

Fairly good book? Another member pointed this out to me a while back but Swope wrote that Song Yingchang, the commander-in-chief of the Ming forces during the war, went to Korea and participated in the Battle of Pyongyang when Song's own letters stated otherwise. Swope obviously ignored this very important detail from a major primary source. This type of mistake should not be present in an academic text.

As for the OP, any work by Timothy Brook is excellent for studying the Ming. I would also recommend State vs. Gentry in Late Ming China by Harry Miller if you like to look at late Ming bureaucratic factionalism and 1587: A Year of No Significance by Ray Huang (a must read if you're serious about studying the Ming). You can also take a look at the Cambridge History of China, they have two volumes for the Ming.

If you can read Chinese, then the amount of primary source documents at your disposal would be vast. The Ming Shi (History of the Ming) and the Ming Shi Lu (Veritable Records of the Ming) are all in a digitized database online. You can also find e-book copies of Guoque, the unofficial history of the Ming, for free on Chinese websites.

Haakbus · Apr 9, 2014

Oh yes, I forgot about that. You are right that it should not be in an academic text. That changes things. I guess I was wrong in saying it was fairly good.

The book has major flaws and we should be skeptical of it, but I don't think we should discredit it entirely, since it does have some important and accurate information.

Also, what's the best way to learn literary Chinese?

f0ma · Apr 9, 2014

Haakbus said:
Also, what's the best way to learn literary Chinese?

I'm studying it next year, so I can't speak with any certainty now. I've heard it's incredibly difficult though. I'd advise formal education if possible. If not, you'd probably have to settle for self study or maybe a tutor if you can find one.

bunnyman987 · Apr 9, 2014

mingming said:
Fairly good book? Another member pointed this out to me a while back but Swope wrote that Song Yingchang, the commander-in-chief of the Ming forces during the war, went to Korea and participated in the Battle of Pyongyang when Song's own letters stated otherwise. Swope obviously ignored this very important detail from a major primary source. This type of mistake should not be present in an academic text.

As for the OP, any work by Timothy Brook is excellent for studying the Ming. I would also recommend State vs. Gentry in Late Ming China by Harry Miller if you like to look at late Ming bureaucratic factionalism and 1587: A Year of No Significance by Ray Huang (a must read if you're serious about studying the Ming). You can also take a look at the Cambridge History of China, they have two volumes for the Ming.

If you can read Chinese, then the amount of primary source documents at your disposal would be vast. The Ming Shi (History of the Ming) and the Ming Shi Lu (Veritable Records of the Ming) are all in a digitized database online. You can also find e-book copies of Guoque, the unofficial history of the Ming, for free on Chinese websites.

Thanks but sadly no I cannot speak Chinese.

mingming · Apr 9, 2014

Haakbus said:
Also, what's the best way to learn literary Chinese?

Classical Chinese is very difficult to learn. It has very few in any grammatical rules, uses some archaic words and phrases, is very condensed, and contains ending particles that are no longer in use (for example 云, which in Classical Chinese means "to say" but is rarely used today for that meaning). I'm reading the Ming Shilu, the Seonjo Sillok, and the Ming Shi Ji Shi Ben Mo, which are all written in Classical Chinese, right now for research and I would say that if you can read Chinese, most of the times you will get a basic idea of what they are talking about.

There are books available in the research library where I am that helps with the reading of Classical Chinese. I suggest you go to a university library and ask the librarian for help. This website here [click] is a good source for learning Classical Chinese. It explains Classical Chinese in detail and contains some English translations of Classical Chinese texts.

Also, this website [click] (it's in Chinese) contains documents written in Classical Chinese with modern Chinese translation below. You can use it to see how Classical Chinese works.

Hope that helps!

Haakbus · Apr 12, 2014

f0ma said:
I'm studying it next year, so I can't speak with any certainty now. I've heard it's incredibly difficult though. I'd advise formal education if possible. If not, you'd probably have to settle for self study or maybe a tutor if you can find one.

mingming said:
Classical Chinese is very difficult to learn. It has very few in any grammatical rules, uses some archaic words and phrases, is very condensed, and contains ending particles that are no longer in use (for example 云, which in Classical Chinese means "to say" but is rarely used today for that meaning). I'm reading the Ming Shilu, the Seonjo Sillok, and the Ming Shi Ji Shi Ben Mo, which are all written in Classical Chinese, right now for research and I would say that if you can read Chinese, most of the times you will get a basic idea of what they are talking about.

There are books available in the research library where I am that helps with the reading of Classical Chinese. I suggest you go to a university library and ask the librarian for help. This website here [click] is a good source for learning Classical Chinese. It explains Classical Chinese in detail and contains some English translations of Classical Chinese texts.

Also, this website [click] (it's in Chinese) contains documents written in Classical Chinese with modern Chinese translation below. You can use it to see how Classical Chinese works.

Hope that helps!

Thanks

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Good Ming Dynasty Resources.

bunnyman987

Haakbus

bunnyman987

YouLoveMeYouKnowIt

f0ma

stevapalooza

bunnyman987

bunnyman987

Haakbus

bunnyman987

YouLoveMeYouKnowIt

mingming

Haakbus

f0ma

bunnyman987

mingming

Haakbus

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