Greatest Empire in History

The Greatest Empire in History


  • Total voters
    54
Joined May 2012
304 Posts | 2+
I voted for Rome because back then a man in any barbarian state only had to say I am a Roman citizen, and his life and treatment was guaranteed.
 
Joined Dec 2011
2,465 Posts | 3+
It was the British Empire.
The British Empire was not created by land conquest but by sea power. The British land area conquered and/or occupied by British forces doesn't even come close to the land area of the Mongols.

There wasn't necessarily a set border, however, if there was, it would again, be the British Empire.
You obviously have no grasp of the size of the Pacific Ocean. You could place all the land mass of the entire world within the area occupied in the Pacific Ocean by the Polynesians and still have a lot of space left over.
China is not an empire, it is a country. However, it used to be an Empire (as there are a lot of different states, fighting to gain full country), but Qin manage to destroy every single other states, and maintain it that way, therefor, it became a country.
China was originally an Empire and the culture that was created when this Empire came into existence has continued right up to the fall of China to the forces of the communists. The longest continuous cultural pervasiveness in human history. It may even be argued that much of the intrinsic cultural values created by the original Empire of China are actually still there.


These are all arguably, as it is much more complicated then that. For example, gunpowder, lead two ways. The simple way, where Chinese fill bamboo tubes with gunpowder, or the intelligent way, the engineering of a musket, which lead to rifling, magazines etc But gunpowder was never invented in Europe, only improved... etc
One can argue about so many things. And everything is "complicated." So many different minutae to be examined. However, no cultural or economic system or even military presence that has ever existed comes close to the one established throughout the world by the post World War 2 American Hegemony. If it could be considered as an Empire, it would definitely be number one. No ifs, ands or nors. Whether it is an Empire or Hegemony is the debatable aspect.
 
Joined Nov 2009
8,402 Posts | 72+
Canada
I think its the British Empire.
Crazy military capabilities, excellent planetary level logistics, habeus corpus, individual rights.

If we are talking of pre-modern history, my vote goes to the Maurya Empire.

In military terms, they were the apex military power of their time, their economy was the biggest economy of 1st millenia BCE as estimated by economists but above all, they displayed some striking modern concepts that we don't see again till 19th century or later:
a) abolition of slavery by official decree
b) public funded healthcare, postal system
c) first political entity in history to register protected species & national parks
d) first political entity in history to register animal cruelty laws
 
Joined May 2012
657 Posts | 1+
Los Angeles, California, USA
Romans defeated by barabrians many times but this doesnt mean barbarians had strong military power than romans

your claim nonsense nothing more

yeah sure, barbarian europeans were far better than Arabs in science, mathematics, astronomy, Surgery in Umayyad era right? lmao

The Umayyad Caliphate might have been the most powerful army of its day (debatable, but probably true), but they were certainly not stronger than the Roman military, Persian military, Hunnic military, or Mongol military in their primes.

How is my claim "nonsense?" The Umayyads were overthrown by the Abbasids after less than 100 years. That's a sign of instability and a weak civil structure. The Byzantine empire was far more "civilized" in that regard, without question.

The Umayyads made no significant lasting contributions in any of those fields. They didn't even leave behind a good history of their own dynasty! The Roman and British empires - and probably others on that list - did far more than the Umayyads ever did.

The bottom line is the Umayyad Caliphate is impressive for sheir rapid expansion and for their defeats of the Persian and Byzantine armies in key battles and al Walid is one of the greatest military commanders of all time. But they were by no means the greatest empire in any objective sense.
 
Joined May 2012
657 Posts | 1+
Los Angeles, California, USA
This aren't 'great' civilizations, I'm sure you'll understand.

That's not the Roman Empire (face palm), that's just a description of the civilization going through different phases.
And according to that logic, the Roman Empire is now extinct in modern society, but China still exists today.

You don't consider the ancient Greek, Egyptian, Phoenician, Babylonian, and Persian civilizations to be great? I don't think you'll find much agreement here if that's what you believe.

How do you define the "Roman Empire?" When did it exist? I say it is around 1000 years, which many would consider to be on the low end. When do you think it began and ended?
 
Joined Dec 2011
2,465 Posts | 3+
I think its the British Empire.
Crazy military capabilities, excellent planetary level logistics, habeus corpus, individual rights.

If we are talking of pre-modern history, my vote goes to the Maurya Empire.

In military terms, they were the apex military power of their time, their economy was the biggest economy of 1st millenia BCE as estimated by economists but above all, they displayed some striking modern concepts that we don't see again till 19th century or later:
a) abolition of slavery by official decree
b) public funded healthcare, postal system
c) first political entity in history to register protected species & national parks
d) first political entity in history to register animal cruelty laws
Interesting concept. Selecting the greatest Empire before modern history. Modern history is post what date? And then one after the birth of Christ up to this predetermined modern time and then one before the birth of Christ. Three separate time periods.
If before BCE. It would be a contest between the Quin Empire and Alexander the Great's short lived area of conquest. If it is after CE and before the 17th century CE, It would be the Moslem Empire vs the Mongols. Depending on whatever criteria for Empire was chosen.
Although the western World has many of the vestiges of the Roman Empire within its' fabric, the Roman Empire cannot compare to the Mongol or Moslem ones. At least in size. Plus the cultural contributions, mixing and fusion of both the Mongol and Moslem civilizations was far more pervasivethan is taught or known in the west. Chauvinism must be avoided in order to determine the true historical consequences and effects of any Empire in human history. The Roman Empire was essentially divided between east and west cultural divisions. With very distinct differences. Which came to actual physical division when Constantine chose to create a new capitol in the east.
The only reason why those in the west would chose Rome over other Empires would be cultural loyalty and not based on the size or honest estimates of the contributions the Moslem and Mongol Empires made to extensively larger numbers of people, especially when compared to that of Rome.
Moreover, it comes down to how "Empire" is defined and what "greatest means."
 
Joined May 2012
123 Posts | 0+
Last edited:
The British Empire was not created by land conquest but by sea power. The British land area conquered and/or occupied by British forces doesn't even come close to the land area of the Mongols.
British Empire: 33.7 Million KM 2
Mongol Empire: 24 Million KM 2

You obviously have no grasp of the size of the Pacific Ocean. You could place all the land mass of the entire world within the area occupied in the Pacific Ocean by the Polynesians and still have a lot of space left over.
Your point is?
China was originally an Empire and the culture that was created when this Empire came into existence has continued right up to the fall of China to the forces of the communists. The longest continuous cultural pervasiveness in human history. It may even be argued that much of the intrinsic cultural values created by the original Empire of China are actually still there.
It was no longer an empire centuries ago, as they are already united under one flag, there is a national language, it's basically united as a whole. I'm sure a lot of historians as well as Chinese (including me) would disagree with you that China is an empire. China was united in the Qin Dynasty, and there is no separation, China is a whole, that's the end of it.
 
Joined May 2012
657 Posts | 1+
Los Angeles, California, USA
Interesting concept. Selecting the greatest Empire before modern history. Modern history is post what date? And then one after the birth of Christ up to this predetermined modern time and then one before the birth of Christ. Three separate time periods.
If before BCE. It would be a contest between the Quin Empire and Alexander the Great's short lived area of conquest. If it is after CE and before the 17th century CE, It would be the Moslem Empire vs the Mongols. Depending on whatever criteria for Empire was chosen.
Although the western World has many of the vestiges of the Roman Empire within its' fabric, the Roman Empire cannot compare to the Mongol or Moslem ones. At least in size. Plus the cultural contributions, mixing and fusion of both the Mongol and Moslem civilizations was far more pervasivethan is taught or known in the west. Chauvinism must be avoided in order to determine the true historical consequences and effects of any Empire in human history. The Roman Empire was essentially divided between east and west cultural divisions. With very distinct differences. Which came to actual physical division when Constantine chose to create a new capitol in the east.
The only reason why those in the west would chose Rome over other Empires would be cultural loyalty and not based on the size or honest estimates of the contributions the Moslem and Mongol Empires made to extensively larger numbers of people, especially when compared to that of Rome.
Moreover, it comes down to how "Empire" is defined and what "greatest means."

I agree with that last sentence - defining "great" is subjective and will of course color the answers in this thread. I evaluated a combination of size, duration, military capability, and enduring impact and came up with the Roman Empire. I disagree that the only reason a westerner would choose Rome is "cultural loyalty."
 
Joined May 2012
123 Posts | 0+
How do you define the "Roman Empire?" When did it exist? I say it is around 1000 years, which many would consider to be on the low end. When do you think it began and ended?
Simply put it, the Byzantines were never part of Roman, they were just a shadow of an empire, France was never part of Roman, Spain, Italian States, England etc This is when the Roman Empire ends, but due to their legacy, the word 'empire' is still applied even towards 1000 AD (The Holy Roman Empire).

Certain distinctive differences between Byzantine and The Holy Roman Empire are their religion, their army and their strategy style. The empire ended when all others gain independence, of course, even Rome (use to be the capital), the pope of Rome, took hold of the city, and thus, it is no longer the capital of the Holy Roman 'Empire'. There by resulting in the collapse of the empire. However, nationalist do argue that, it still exist even all it's border is separated. Simply put it, it was an empire, which divided into few, but the center, is still refer as Empire (and of course, Emperor for the king of one faction). Even though it is not the definition of an Empire.
 
Joined May 2012
657 Posts | 1+
Los Angeles, California, USA
Simply put it, the Byzantines were never part of Roman, they were just a shadow of an empire, France was never part of Roman, Spain, Italian States, England etc This is when the Roman Empire ends, but due to their legacy, the word 'empire' is still applied even towards 1000 AD (The Holy Roman Empire).

Certain distinctive differences between Byzantine and The Holy Roman Empire are their religion, their army and their strategy style. The empire ended when all others gain independence, of course, even Rome (use to be the capital), the pope of Rome, took hold of the city, and thus, it is no longer the capital of the Holy Roman 'Empire'. There by resulting in the collapse of the empire. However, nationalist do argue that, it still exist even all it's border is separated. Simply put it, it was an empire, which divided into few, but the center, is still refer as Empire (and of course, Emperor for the king of one faction). Even though it is not the definition of an Empire.

You didn't answer my question at all. When do you think the Roman Empire began and when do you think it ended? I say it began with Roman expansion and aggressive militarization after 387 BCE, and continued until the fall of the Western Empire in 476, for a total of 863 years. What are your dates?
 
Joined Nov 2009
8,402 Posts | 72+
Canada
Under no criteria does Alexander's short-lived empire enter this realm of 'greatness'.
His empire was in ruins when he got it, he ruined it some more with his incessant warring, forced social upheaval by forced marriages between natives and Greeks and is neither the economic or military apex entity of its time.

I differentiate between modern history and pre-modern history because the realities of the modern world are starkly different than pre-modern world, since heavy machinery & 'lightning speed communciations' fundamentally change the human living condition and thus, social outlook.

However, there isn't much to differentiate the lives of common folks from the Frankish Empire to that of the Roman Empire and the Han, in the realms of technological and logistical game-changers.

This is why i nominate a modern and pre-modern candidates.

Ultimately, what makes a great empire is not just military might(though it is important), it is also about the influence of the society on subsequent generations and the quality of life.
In the former category, the Mauryas are as influential as the Romans, if not more: they exhibit religious tolerance ( which is absent from the Roman empire- in their pre-Christian days, they persecuted Christians and Jews, in their post Christian days, they persecuted pagans). The Mauryan empire, as most pre-Islamic Indian empires, patronized Buddhism, Jainism, Ajivika and Vedism (which developed into modern day hinduism), with individual emperors having their own personal creed ( Chandragupta Maurya was an ajivika follower, so was Bindusara, Ashoka was a Buddhist, his successor Dasaratha was a Buddhist, his successor Samprati was a Jain and his successor Salisuka was an Ajivak). This is remarkable for its time, where no empire, with the exception of the Achaemenid Empire & Maurya/Nanda Empires, officially endorsed different faiths.
The influence of the Mauryas is further maginified by the fact that Ashoka was the 'Constantine of Buddhism', without him, Buddhism would've been a minor following in the world, if even alive. Because of him, Buddhism spread through Central Asia and the Indian Ocean region and has come to influence the lives of over half a billion people today.

So clearly, the Mauryans tick the 'influence on subsequent generations' category pretty well.
On military might- i don't think there was an entity in its time that could challenge the Mauryas on power: the Selucids were the apex empire in the western world for much of the Mauryan time and it was a non-factor against the Mauryas: losing almost a third of its lands to the mauryas in a single campaign, not to mention, a large portion of the Selucid power was shored up by Mauryan support: Mauryan support gave Selucus 500 war elephants,which were instrumental in establishing Selucid supremacy in the Diadochi world, much later, similar aid was provided to Antiochus the Great after his failed Bactrian campaign.

Clearly, they tick the category of military and diplomatic influence categories pretty well too.

On social terms, they were the free-est society of their time: the only society to formally abolish slavery and garantee individual rights of both genders. In this respect, they make the Greeks and the Romans look barbaric in their social outlook. I rate the Indian society till the fall of the Gupta Empire ( 500s CE) to be the most developed and foreward thinking social entity in the world, as they were the only society to show modern day values such as seperation of church and state ( the Indian states sponsored multi-denominational faiths, unheard of till modern times- i am not talking about simply 'tolerating' them, but spending state funds on faith-related buildings on multiple denominations), fundamental rights of the individual ( which was lacking in the Greco-Roman world- their 'fundamental rights' were similar to the 'rights of the nobility' in the medeival world, where most 'rights' pertained only to aristoracy and the 'citizens aristocracy') and such modern concepts as protected species, animal rights, protected forests & national parks.
Given that they had public funded education and medicare ( the two are not unique to this civilization but still rather rare in the pre-modern world), i would say that the Mauryans and subsequent Indian dynasties were the most socially progressive in the world.
The caste system was not rigid, implying that its negatives were not felt in that society( caste becomes nothing more than an identity marker if inter-caste marriages are taking place and the son of a farmer could become a warrior, who's son could become a priest).

And lastly economy: the Indian economy of the Mauryan empire was the largest economy of its time, consistently showing a strikingly well developed industrial category ( Indian steel is the best steel of the ancient world, they were also the apex producer of textiles, fiber and dyes) alongside the world's most developed resource industry ( the spice route, till late 1st millenia BCE, was predominantly Indian goods shipped to the west).

Ultimately, if i wanted to be a commoner in the ancient world, i would pick the Mauryan society, where i would enjoy greater rights ( and especially, rights against being abused by previledged nobility- something that didn't exist for slaves in the Greco-Roman world) and social mobility. If i were to be a nobleman, i would also pick the Mauryan society-for it was the richest and most powerful of its time ( the two categories the nobles care the most about).
 
Joined Nov 2009
8,402 Posts | 72+
Canada
You didn't answer my question at all. When do you think the Roman Empire began and when do you think it ended? I say it began with Roman expansion and aggressive militarization after 387 BCE, and continued until the fall of the Western Empire in 476, for a total of 863 years. What are your dates?

i would give similar dates for the Roman Empire too, though i consider its golden age as 200 BCE to 250 CE, a period of 450 years.

durability of an empire is a double-edged sword: it almost always requires a mass scale slaughter to leave only one group of people in charge of administration, thus ensuring durability. This is how the Romans got to be durable: they simply exterminated all the kings & chieftians from the territorry they annexed.
The process of vassalisation ( the preferred method of the Parthians & most Indian dynasties, with the exception of the Nandas and Mauryas) leads to a less stable political entity ( as, the vassal kings will simply wait till the central power gets weak enough to rebel) but much greater social cohesiveness and stability ( people and their entire clans arn't being exterminated).
 
Joined May 2012
123 Posts | 0+
You didn't answer my question at all. When do you think the Roman Empire began and when do you think it ended? I say it began with Roman expansion and aggressive militarization after 387 BCE, and continued until the fall of the Western Empire in 476, for a total of 863 years. What are your dates?

117 AD This is where the Roman Empire is at it's biggest, and as it is a collection of faction under one dominant rule, it is an empire. I would say that the end to the Roman Empire is around 1000 AD, when it has lost control of what it once conquered.

It's span would be approximately 800-900 years, however, this does vary, as certain event happened at certain time. 900 I would say, is maximum for the Roman Empire.
 
Joined May 2012
657 Posts | 1+
Los Angeles, California, USA
117 AD This is where the Roman Empire is at it's biggest, and as it is a collection of faction under one dominant rule, it is an empire. I would say that the end to the Roman Empire is around 1000 AD, when it has lost control of what it once conquered.

It's span would be approximately 800-900 years, however, this does vary, as certain event happened at certain time. 900 I would say, is maximum for the Roman Empire.

I don't even know where to begin.

Ok, we arrive at roughly the same length of time (850-1000 years), but to start counting when the empire was at its biggest (and I'm not sure if 117 CE is correct - very debatable), and arbitrarily end it at 1000 CE just makes no sense. If you want to choose a date when they lost most of their holdings, it was well before 1000 CE. And after 476 the Empire is really more the Byzantine Empire, even though the Byzantines considered themselves "Romans." Also, men like Julius Caesar, Sulla, Pompey, Octavian, Cicero, etc would be very surprised you didn't consider them part of the Roman empire.

So we agree on the duration of the empire, which is what you argued with me about to begin with, but your dates are way off. That's just a completely illogical and inconsistent way to count the duration of the Empire. I've never heard of anyone counting the duration of an empire/society/civilization from when it was largest and then just sort of picking a random date after they lost most of their territory to end it. No offense, it just seems very strange.
 
Joined May 2012
123 Posts | 0+
If you want to choose a date when they lost most of their holdings, it was well before 1000 CE.

I said it as maximum for the Roman Empire, as you seem to like them so much.

and I'm not sure if 117 CE is correct - very debatable

This is not debatable at all, there are historical facts.

Also, men like Julius Caesar, Sulla, Pompey, Octavian, Cicero, etc would be very surprised you didn't consider them part of the Roman empire.

Men like Julius Ceasar of Pompey won't be surprise at all, they'll expect me to consider them part of the Roman Republic, not the Roman Empire.

So we agree on the duration of the empire, which is what you argued with me about to begin with, but your dates are way off. That's just a completely illogical and inconsistent way to count the duration of the Empire.

What dates are way off? The fact that I extended the span of their empire? That I can agree with, you need to actually understand the definition of empire first.
 
Joined May 2012
657 Posts | 1+
Los Angeles, California, USA
Men like Julius Ceasar of Pompey won't be surprise at all, they'll expect me to consider them part of the Roman Republic, not the Roman Empire.



.

Look at the original poll. It says "late Roman Republic and early Empire."
 
Joined May 2012
123 Posts | 0+
Look at the original poll. It says "late Roman Republic and early Empire."

I completely agree with you.

Hence, your sentence.
then the empire last around 1850 years. If you count from the founding of Rome through the end of the Byzantine Empire, the total span is 2200+ years.
 
Joined May 2012
657 Posts | 1+
Los Angeles, California, USA
I completely agree with you.

Hence, your sentence.

No, my original post was:

And they lasted at least 1,000 years, depending on when you consider the beginning and end of the empire.

And you responded:

The Roman Empire never lasted 1000 years...

And now you are saying it lasted 900 years, starting from when the Empire was at its greatest until the completely arbitrary date of 1000 CE. Sorry, I can't follow the logic in your argument...
 
Joined May 2012
123 Posts | 0+
And now you are saying it lasted 900 years, starting from when the Empire was at its greatest until the completely arbitrary date of 1000 CE. Sorry, I can't follow the logic in your argument...
It's so simply, and you still don't understand? I said so because you love the Roman Empire too much, you actively defend their legacy with fake facts, or possibly misunderstood facts. The Roman Empire never lasted 900 years, it's just to sugar coat things for you, how can you not see it -.-
 

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