Greek deities in India. Hercules worshipped in India!

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Hercules in Greek makes perfect sense...... It's just that you don't understand it. Haricula on the other hand means someone who comes from a nick name of a god! Hari was a nick name, not Krishna's name. Hera was a name, not a nick name....


The nickname makes sense, is based on words in sanskrit that makes sense. Hera makes no sense, has no meaning. Whether it is an official or unofficial name, precedence is always given to names that have direct meaning in a language over names that are simple nouns with no meaning.
 
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All that is speculative. What is known from this mythology, is that he was born in India to people living in India- making him Indian.



Still makes less sense. Hera itself has no meaning in Greek, Hari has meaning in Sanskrit. 'Glory through hera' is the common translation- if it can mean 'glory against hera', you need to substantiate that claim. Even then, it makes less sense than direct descriptor words from the sanskrit language.

No, you speculate that Hercules although a descendant of Greek Dionysius was Indian! That is less likely. Far less likely, since you call Greeks "xenophobic". :cool:

Hera does not have a certain etymology but could be the female of hero...
It is still a Greek name. I do not need to substantiate anything. You need to understand that a name can be interpreted in more than one way. If you don't I will point you to linguists (although you are supposed to hold a minor in linguistics....) :eek: Iraklis means glory to/through/from Hera. It is a composite word and can mean many things....
 
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No, you speculate that Hercules although a descendant of Greek Dionysius was Indian! That is less likely. Far less likely, since you call Greeks "xenophobic". :cool:

There is no speculation. A person born to settlers in a land assumes the identity of the land. That is universal. Its true for Canadians born of British/German parents, its true for any 2nd generation immigrant and it certainly holds for Hari-kulas too.

Hera does not have a certain etymology but could be the female of hero...
It is still a Greek name.

It does not have a certain etomology. Hari has a certain etymology. Therefore it gets precedence.

I do not need to substantiate anything. You need to understand that a name can be interpreted in more than one way. If you don't I will point you to linguists (although you are supposed to hold a minor in linguistics....) :eek: Iraklis means glory to/through/from Hera. It is a composite word and can mean many things....

The association of that nomenclature for Herakles is dubious. The association of that nomenclature for Hari-kulas is far more reasonable.
 
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No. I don't care to speculate on the existence of a mythological character.
My claim is that the word 'hari-kulas' makes far more sense than 'hera-kles' and therefore, its origination in India is a likelier case than its origin in Greek.
Please read the rest of the thread to see the reasoning and evidence presented.
Do you have any Indian etymological dictionary to confirm your claim?
 
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There is no speculation. A person born to settlers in a land assumes the identity of the land. That is universal. Its true for Canadians born of British/German parents, its true for any 2nd generation immigrant and it certainly holds for Hari-kulas too.



It does not have a certain etomology. Hari has a certain etymology. Therefore it gets precedence.



The association of that nomenclature for Herakles is dubious. The association of that nomenclature for Hari-kulas is far more reasonable.

1) it is irrelevant. Dionysius comes from Greece, and so does his descendant. His father/grand father spoke Greek, not Hindi. There is no way to prove that he became an Indian.

2) Krishna is a name, just like Hera. There is no precedence. They are equal.... Anything else is irrelevant. Period.

3) Haricula makes less sense because the name does not sound like IRAKLIS, nor its meaning has anything to do with it.... Irrelevant again.
 
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1) it is irrelevant. Dionysius comes from Greece, and so does his descendant. His father/grand father spoke Greek, not Hindi. There is no way to prove that he became an Indian.

There is no way to prove how far down the line Hari-kulas was from Dionysus, whether he spoke Greek or Indic languages, etc. What we know is that he was born in India to people living in India- making him an Indian.

2) Krishna is a name, just like Hera. There is no precedence. They are equal.... Anything else is irrelevant. Period.

The nickname of Krishna is hari- which has meaning when applied to Krishna, is explicitly applied to Krishna in the mahabharata and religious literature and therefore, has higher significance than hera, which has no established etymology.

3) Haricula makes less sense because the name does not sound like IRAKLIS, nor its meaning has anything to do with it.... Irrelevant again.

It sounds quite like herakles. Hera-kles/ Hari-kulas are remarkably similar and follow all the principles of transmutation of words in another language, similar to Ionians being Yavanas, Sindhu being Indus, etc.
 
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There is no way to prove how far down the line Hari-kulas was from Dionysus, whether he spoke Greek or Indic languages, etc. What we know is that he was born in India to people living in India- making him an Indian.



The nickname of Krishna is hari- which has meaning when applied to Krishna, is explicitly applied to Krishna in the mahabharata and religious literature and therefore, has higher significance than hera, which has no established etymology.



It sounds quite like herakles. Hera-kles/ Hari-kulas are remarkably similar and follow all the principles of transmutation of words in another language, similar to Ionians being Yavanas, Sindhu being Indus, etc.

1) since there is no way you can prove anything, don't insist! Dionysius presence in India is what should worry you.

2) So the nickname of Krishna replaces his own name? What are you talking about. Krishna is the name and it is just a name... Like Hera!

3) It is not Herakles... That's the latin version. In Greek it is IRAKLIS. That's the original name, not the latin one! Ira vs hari and klis vs kula.
haricula and iraklis.... not close. Glory and Hera vs. Clan of Hari.
 
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Krishna_holding_flute.jpg


That was Krishna who gave birth to Haricula...

And that's Hercules......

Heracles_Pio-Clementino_Inv252.jpg


And you want to connect them somehow...
 
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1) since there is no way you can prove anything, don't insist! Dionysius presence in India is what should worry you.

Born in Canada to settlers in Canada= Canadian.
Born in India to settlers in India = Indian.

That is consistent around the world, and it applies here.

2) So the nickname of Krishna replaces his own name? What are you talking about. Krishna is the name and it is just a name... Like Hera!

But the word 'hari-kula' is based on hari, which is a descriptor of Krishna, which means something. The issue here isn't krishna, its hari. Which has a sounder etymology than Hera.

3) It is not Herakles... That's the latin version. In Greek it is IRAKLIS. That's the original name, not the latin one! Ira vs hari and klis vs kula.
haricula and iraklis.... not close. Glory and Hera vs. Clan of Hari.

Kles/Klis to Kulas is a fairly close approximation.
Its hera, not Ira. Ira has no significance here. Hari-culas (its culas/Kulas, not cula only. Cula means lineage/descent. Culas mean 'of the lineage' and that is how it is applied).
 
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That was Krishna who gave birth to Haricula...

And that's Hercules......



And you want to connect them somehow...


Artistic depictions are of no value here. Especially when they are removed from each other by distance and time by thousand years. The descriptor of Krishna and Herakles match significantly, the etymology of Hari-kulas makes a sounder etymological case than Hera-klis. Therefore, precedence goes to Hari-kulas.

You can keep dancing around the issue but it does not change the fact that the mythologies you quote confirms Herakles to've been born in India to people living in India (therefore, Indian), the etymology of Hari-kulas is on sounder basis than the etymology of Hera-klis. Hera has no established etymology, Hari has categorically established etymology. Together, Hari-kulas makes sense, it means descendants of Hari, Heraklis makes no sense, as has been already discussed by multiple contributors to this tread.

hari is the nickname of Krishna in Indian epic and religious literature- also confirmed by the fact that the deity Hari-kulas is the patron deity of the clan that descends from Krishna, the Surasenas.

The proof is incontrovertible and rests on firmer ground than Greek etymology and connections.

No amount of floods of posts from you will change these etymological and linguistic facts.

We should be speculating on how Indian deities get to Greece, not the other way round, given that the establishment of Hari-kulas in India by birth, by nomenclature and mythology rests on firmer ground than the greek case.
 
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Born in Canada to settlers in Canada= Canadian.
Born in India to settlers in India = Indian.

That is consistent around the world, and it applies here.



But the word 'hari-kula' is based on hari, which is a descriptor of Krishna, which means something. The issue here isn't krishna, its hari. Which has a sounder etymology than Hera.



Kles/Klis to Kulas is a fairly close approximation.
Its hera, not Ira. Ira has no significance here. Hari-culas (its culas/Kulas, not cula only. Cula means lineage/descent. Culas mean 'of the lineage' and that is how it is applied).


The application is wrong because it requires that descendants were assimilated. I know plenty of immigrants' offspring who are not. For example Turks in Germany.

Again I replied that haricula refers to a name of a god and the clan while Hercules refers to the glory that is related to a god (defeat). Same thing.
The name of the god is not important, as long as it derives from a god!!!

It is Ira, not Hera. You don't know either modern or ancient Greek. It's better to ask than pretend to know what you ignore. Please, don't do this to yourself. Hera is the latin "way" not the Greek.... ΗΡΑΚΛΗΣ is pronounced Iraklis.
 
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First, according the “A Classical Dictionary of India”, the term

· Balarama” is also termed the Hercules of Indian Mythology.
· Krishna”, is the Indian Hercules and Apollo combined.
· Bhima”, is the Indian Hercules or the Orlando of the mythological poetry of the Hindus.

Second, regarding the etymology is well known that the related languages show resemblances in vocabulary and grammar that reflect their common ancestry. Greek, Latin, and Sanskrit, for example, have similar words for the numerals from one to ten, for kinship terms like "mother" and "father," and for a host of other common lexical items. They also show similar endings in the inflection of nouns and verbs. One of the major achievements of nineteenth-century linguistic scholarship was the development of the comparative method, a set of techniques for using such resemblances to reconstruct actual words and forms in long-extinct protolanguages.
Let us consider an example.
The masculine nominative form of the word for "three" in Greek is treîs (phonetically [trēs]), contracted from an earlier two-syllable trées, a variant still found in the conservative Cretan dialect. The corresponding words in Latin and Sanskrit are trēs and tráyas, respectively; taken together, the evidence of these three forms clearly points to a common origin in the parent language.
Now, the viability of a proposed etymology within a family of related languages, then, depends not on whether the forms being compared "look alike" in an impressionistic sense, but whether they can be referred back to a common prototype via independently motivated sound laws.

Finally, the elementary principle of etymology is that a good etymology depends not on phonetic similarity, but on phonetically regular patterns of correspondence.

That’s why we must deposit the dictionaries in order to give the correct etymology or historical analysis of a word.
 
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Artistic depictions are of no value here. Especially when they are removed from each other by distance and time by thousand years. The descriptor of Krishna and Herakles match significantly, the etymology of Hari-kulas makes a sounder etymological case than Hera-klis. Therefore, precedence goes to Hari-kulas.

You can keep dancing around the issue but it does not change the fact that the mythologies you quote confirms Herakles to've been born in India to people living in India (therefore, Indian), the etymology of Hari-kulas is on sounder basis than the etymology of Hera-klis. Hera has no established etymology, Hari has categorically established etymology. Together, Hari-kulas makes sense, it means descendants of Hari, Heraklis makes no sense, as has been already discussed by multiple contributors to this tread.

hari is the nickname of Krishna in Indian epic and religious literature- also confirmed by the fact that the deity Hari-kulas is the patron deity of the clan that descends from Krishna, the Surasenas.

The proof is incontrovertible and rests on firmer ground than Greek etymology and connections.

No amount of floods of posts from you will change these etymological and linguistic facts.

We should be speculating on how Indian deities get to Greece, not the other way round, given that the establishment of Hari-kulas in India by birth, by nomenclature and mythology rests on firmer ground than the greek case.

You obviously make things up now. Krishna and Heracles descriptions do not match at all.... How can you say that they match significantly. :zany:

Also the Indians themselves say that Dionysius came to them. So it is exactly the opposite of your arbitrary theories.

Your floods of posts do not convince anyone. Haricula makes less sense than Iraklis.
 
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Akritas made a good post two ago, and i think there's the catch... Did figures of the Indian pantheon originate in Greece or vice versa? Or is it possible they had a common origin from pre-historic times... Not nessecarily in Greece or on the Indian subcontinent.

I think LoG and Thess are actually cousins !
 
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In order to make Krishna resemble Heracles, you need to make Heracles a dual personality..... Heracles and Apollo at the same time. So, the link is not direct. You could associate Krishna and Apollo more, since they were both keen on MUSIC! FLUTE vs harp...
 
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The application is wrong because it requires that descendants were assimilated. I know plenty of immigrants' offspring who are not. For example Turks in Germany.

When we don't know the details, the normal prevalence is considered, not the exception cases. Normal cases show that the overwhelming majority of immigrants over time are assimilated, especially when they come from comapratively similar cultures (such as ancient Greek and Vedic, modern day French or German, etc).

Unless you can provide eviendce, the precedence is, born to immigrants settled in a land = identity of the land. Born to settlers in India = Indian. Period.

Again I replied that haricula refers to a name of a god and the clan while Hercules refers to the glory that is related to a god (defeat). Same thing.
The name of the god is not important, as long as it derives from a god!!!

The word hari itself means something in Sanskrit, Hera means nothing in Greek. It is that what gives it precedence over Greek etymology.

It is Ira, not Hera. You don't know either modern or ancient Greek. It's better to ask than pretend to know what you ignore. Please, don't do this to yourself. Hera is the latin "way" not the Greek.... ΗΡΑΚΛΗΣ is pronounced Iraklis.

Ira or Hera or whatever. Point is, it is a noun, with no meaning established, thus most likely an import. Hari means something, therefore, its etymology takes precedence.

Krishna and Heracles descriptions do not match at all.... How can you say that they match significantly. :zany:

The task of Herakles has close resemblance to the 'feats of Krishna', both are associated with masculinity, virility and extensive feats of power and machismo.
Significant attributes that correlate

Also the Indians themselves say that Dionysius came to them. So it is exactly the opposite of your arbitrary theories.

I never denied that. What i said is, the same source you are quoting, states that Herakles was born in India to Indian settlers, thus making him Indian.

Haricula makes less sense than Iraklis.

You can bury your head in the sand as much as you wish, but it makes far more sense than Iraklis. Ira has no meaning in Greek, Hari has meaning in Sanskrit. When seen as a whole. Hari-kula means 'descendants of the theif', Irakles means 'glory to ira', when it is established that 'glory to Ira' makes no sense for the character being identified with it, who openly defies Ira and Ira has every reason to be displeased.

Since Hari means something and Ira/Hera does not, the etymology of Hari-kulas has a stronger basis (both the cognates and the whole makes sense) than Ira-kles(where one of the cognates does not mean anything).
 
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Akritas, if we presume that there was a Proto-Indo-European origin then it could explain why Sanskrit and Greek (and Latin) have some similar/common words. It couldn't tell which one was older though.... That's because ancient texts are gone. What we have now is Linear B texts from 1400-1500 BC and various texts from India that date back to 1000 BC. The oldest surviving READABLE deciphered texts from India date back to around 1000-1200 BC. So, there is no way to draw concusions without deciphered texts from 3000 BC from both Helladic and IVC regions.

Anything else is pure speculation!
 
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In order to make Krishna resemble Heracles, you need to make Heracles a dual personality..... Heracles and Apollo at the same time. So, the link is not direct. You could associate Krishna and Apollo more, since they were both keen on MUSIC! FLUTE vs harp...

Does not change the fact that Krishna shares quite a few major traits with Irakles, and has a stronger claim to the basis of the word, through 'hari-kulas' than Irakles, since hari and kulas mean something in sanskrit that is completely consistent with the picture, while Hera/Ira means nothing in Greek and the consistency of the word applied to the protagonist (Irakles), is dubious.
 

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