How come Japanese Colonialism didn't cause south Korea to be 3rd world like how Spanish colonialism caused Spain's former colonies to be 3rd world?

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So, which part of the book specifically says that? Chapter and page please, assuming you've actually read it and didn't just google that.
Maybe were arguing over semantics . Yes Park favored certain corporations but then again the US has no bid contracts and Western corporations contribute money those elected officials that grant them favors. Why single out South Korea as a den of inequity?
Leftyhunter
 
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Maybe were arguing over semantics . Yes Park favored certain corporations but then again the US has no bid contracts and Western corporations contribute money those elected officials that grant them favors. Why single out South Korea as a den of inequity?
Leftyhunter
It's not singling them out, just pointing out that corruption is not necessarily an impediment to high growth, and so the success of the Asian tigers contrasted with the relative stagnation of SE Asia can't just be explained away by using the stereotype that one group is well-educated and hard-working while the other is lazy and corrupt.
 
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It's not singling them out, just pointing out that corruption is not necessarily an impediment to high growth, and so the success of the Asian tigers contrasted with the relative stagnation of SE Asia can't just be explained away by using the stereotype that one group is well-educated and hard-working while the other is lazy and corrupt.

Low state capacity is indeed an impediment to high growth though.
 
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It's not singling them out, just pointing out that corruption is not necessarily an impediment to high growth, and so the success of the Asian tigers contrasted with the relative stagnation of SE Asia can't just be explained away by using the stereotype that one group is well-educated and hard-working while the other is lazy and corrupt.
I never used that stereotype. I never said anyone was lazy.Different countries have different circumstances. A circa 1960s foreign investor or businessman is far more likely to invest in relatively politically stable South Korea or Taiwan vs SEA. The work force in SK and ROC is more capable of industrial work at a very competitive wage rate. Both countries are at peace although a very tense peace. As time wore on and communisim receded countries such has Vietnam and China could compete in manufacturing products. Still SK and ROC had a head start and that's why they are where they are today.
Leftyhunter
 
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I never used that stereotype. I never said anyone was lazy.Different countries have different circumstances. A circa 1960s foreign investor or businessman is far more likely to invest in relatively politically stable South Korea or Taiwan vs SEA. The work force in SK and ROC is more capable of industrial work at a very competitive wage rate. Both countries are at peace although a very tense peace. As time wore on and communisim receded countries such has Vietnam and China could compete in manufacturing products. Still SK and ROC had a head start and that's why they are where they are today.
Leftyhunter
SK and TW were not politically stable in the 1960s, both were essentially Bonapartist regimes that worked hand in glove with the corporate sector to industrialize while using mass repression and violence to stamp out any hint of leftist sentiment. Both only truly democratized as the Cold War ended, by which time they had established themselves to the point where allowing petty partisanship back into the public sphere wasn't going to ruin the entire economy. All of the Asian tigers also lucked out in that China's reform and opening up process began just as their growth was starting to plateau, which gave them a place to offload their low-value manufacturing as well as a gigantic export market, if not for that they would have likely ended up in the same middle income trap that many formerly promising economies did. However, they are sort of stuck in a kind of "upper middle income trap" now, since their lack of strategic autonomy and geopolitical clout means that they have no ability to dictate terms of trade, and having to subordinate their own interests to those of the US will likely doom them in the long run.
 
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SK and TW were not politically stable in the 1960s, both were essentially Bonapartist regimes that worked hand in glove with the corporate sector to industrialize while using mass repression and violence to stamp out any hint of leftist sentiment. Both only truly democratized as the Cold War ended, by which time they had established themselves to the point where allowing petty partisanship back into the public sphere wasn't going to ruin the entire economy. All of the Asian tigers also lucked out in that China's reform and opening up process began just as their growth was starting to plateau, which gave them a place to offload their low-value manufacturing as well as a gigantic export market, if not for that they would have likely ended up in the same middle income trap that many formerly promising economies did. However, they are sort of stuck in a kind of "upper middle income trap" now, since their lack of strategic autonomy and geopolitical clout means that they have no ability to dictate terms of trade, and having to subordinate their own interests to those of the US will likely doom them in the long run.
Yes South Korea had a student coup against Sygman Rhee and their was a brief republic but once Park succeeded in his coup SK was politically stable although not a democracy as was Taiwan under the KMT. Countries that are corrupt and not stable don't have growing economies . Luck is good but SK and ROC played their cards right. As for the future who knows but if I had a choice between living in North Korea, Cuba , China, Russia or South Korea it wouldn't be a hard choice.
Lefyyhunter
 
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Well, South Korea under Park, who begans its high growth period, was hardly a liberal democracy.
Some people argue that democracy comes after growth: as people get richer, they develop the desire to get political representation after they satiated their more basic desires for material goods.
 
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Some people argue that democracy comes after growth: as people get richer, they develop the desire to get political representation after they satiated their more basic desires for material goods.
It is a two-way street, democracy, and growth helping each other. But poor countries are not fertile ground for democracy, poor people want help from the government, which doesn't have resources to provide and so resorts to dictatorship.
 
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It is a two-way street, democracy, and growth helping each other. But poor countries are not fertile ground for democracy, poor people want help from the government, which doesn't have resources to provide and so resorts to dictatorship.
That's not exactly true either, each of the Western powers had at best a severely limited franchise during their initial periods of industrialization, and much of that growth was buoyed by access to cheap natural resources and labor from the colonies and slave trade. By the time any of them came anywhere close to living up to their supposed ideals, they had already started outsourcing most of their production to the global south. The issue is that growth requires resources to be concentrated in a small enough group of actors for the entire economy to coordinate on a singular agenda, which of course is incompatible with any kind of meaningful democracy. States can democratize when they reach the point where the leftover scraps that the masses can access become good enough to survive on, so throwing the plebs some voting rights won't cause them to bring down the entire state-industrial apparatus. Democratizing too soon just means too many hands grabbing for a slice, which makes it impossible to execute on any kind of long term plan. Of course, another requirement is that the elites in charge also need to be farsighted enough to actually invest these resources properly instead of just stealing from the public, which paradoxically means that while petty, low level corruption debilitates an economy, systematically rigging the entire system can actually be beneficial.
 
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It is a two-way street, democracy, and growth helping each other.
I think thats the consensus in the development literature.
But poor countries are not fertile ground for democracy, poor people want help from the government, which doesn't have resources to provide and so resorts to dictatorship.
I think that is not true: as development is correlated with democracy, the statistical likelihood of a country being democracy and poor at the same time is low.

The number of the democratic countries has also increased dramaticaly over the past 200 years, from zero to nearly a hundred countries, which suggests that poor countries becoming democratic is not unlikely, and we should be aware that by our 21st century standards every country in the world was underdeveloped 3-4 generations ago:

1674958555330.png
Funny that our modern world reached an analogous point around the year 2000 that the Ancient Greek world likely reached around the time of Alexander: roughly half of the governments were democracies in both contexts.

From a long term perspective in development the world was doing worse than Subsaharan Africa 200 years ago (in terms of literacy and life expectancy, for example), so one might conclude that Europe and the US are just a few generations ahead of the curve, while Subsaharan Africa and the poorest parts of Asia and Latin América are a couple of generations behind, but the whole world is moving in the same direction: towards developed liberal democracy. Following this long term perspective, South Korea might just have been a lucky case of a country that became developed super quickly, jumping over it's peers in the race to get developed and democratic, but maybe in the long run that will not matter.
 
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I think thats the consensus in the development literature.

I think that is not true: as development is correlated with democracy, the statistical likelihood of a country being democracy and poor at the same time is low.

The number of the democratic countries has also increased dramaticaly over the past 200 years, from zero to nearly a hundred countries, which suggests that poor countries becoming democratic is not unlikely, and we should be aware that by our 21st century standards every country in the world was underdeveloped 3-4 generations ago:

View attachment 61360
Funny that our modern world reached an analogous point around the year 2000 that the Ancient Greek world likely reached around the time of Alexander: roughly half of the governments were democracies in both contexts.

From a long term perspective in development the world was doing worse than Subsaharan Africa 200 years ago (in terms of literacy and life expectancy, for example), so one might conclude that Europe and the US are just a few generations ahead of the curve, while Subsaharan Africa and the poorest parts of Asia and Latin América are a couple of generations behind, but the whole world is moving in the same direction: towards developed liberal democracy. Following this long term perspective, South Korea might just have been a lucky case of a country that became developed super quickly, jumping over it's peers in the race to get developed and democratic, but maybe in the long run that will not matter.
And they say that leftists are naive...

Democracy is not some kind of binary thing, and countries that have very similar electoral systems can often have wildly different governance in practice because of different material conditions and public sentiment. In most of the global south, the system of government they choose barely even matters since the most impactful decisions are made by foreign companies over which they have no power to influence. And especially in many post-colonial states with arbitrarily drawn borders, democracy means an open embrace of sectarianism, because after all that other tribe can't outvote yours if you kill them all. The developed nations of the world got to where they are by exploiting the resources and labor of the rest of the world, if everyone suddenly started behaving the same way then there wouldn't be enough people at the base of the pyramid to support all those trying to climb to the top, leading the entire structure to collapse. Taiwan and South Korea were allowed to join the first world club because they're too small to really be any threat to the established order, but if they ever were to you can bet your bottom dollar that the West will use every tool in its arsenal to destroy them.
 
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And they say that leftists are naive...

Democracy is not some kind of binary thing, and countries that have very similar electoral systems can often have wildly different governance in practice because of different material conditions and public sentiment. In most of the global south, the system of government they choose barely even matters since the most impactful decisions are made by foreign companies over which they have no power to influence. And especially in many post-colonial states with arbitrarily drawn borders, democracy means an open embrace of sectarianism, because after all that other tribe can't outvote yours if you kill them all. The developed nations of the world got to where they are by exploiting the resources and labor of the rest of the world, if everyone suddenly started behaving the same way then there wouldn't be enough people at the base of the pyramid to support all those trying to climb to the top, leading the entire structure to collapse. Taiwan and South Korea were allowed to join the first world club because they're too small to really be any threat to the established order, but if they ever were to you can bet your bottom dollar that the West will use every tool in its arsenal to destroy them.

How do you view the West's opening to China and encouragement of China joining the club? Was it only a policy born in the Cold War to separate China from the Soviet sphere and the decision makers never really thought China could become the leading GDP?
 
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How do you view the West's opening to China and encouragement of China joining the club? Was it only a policy born in the Cold War to separate China from the Soviet sphere and the decision makers never really thought China could become the leading GDP?
It was probably just kicking the can down the road, the powers that be figured that in the time it would take for China to develop into a true economic rival, we'd have some sort of plan in place to take them down. Whether those plans will actually work, we'll have to wait and see.
 
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However, they are sort of stuck in a kind of "upper middle income trap" now, since their lack of strategic autonomy and geopolitical clout means that they have no ability to dictate terms of trade, and having to subordinate their own interests to those of the US will likely doom them in the long run.
Or maybe and also hopefully not. Perhaps because it also would not really be in US long term strategic interests to have close allies in Western Pacific doomed to that kind of "upper middle income trap" that you mentioned.
 
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The Phillipines had a communist threat, and it came from within through a communist insurgency. The Philippines was near China as Japan was.

Besides, Japan was always a liberal democracy throughout the Cold War, while the Philippines lived that period mostly through a dictatorship under Ferdinand Marcos.
It peaked during the early 1950s, after which it fell apart and devolved into groups of bandits extorting from infrastructure project developers. In several cases, it was even buying firearms from corrupt military officials.

Also, the Philippines is overwhelmingly Christian, which is why it was never even close to China when it comes to Communist successes. That's why Philippine Communists were forced to use NGO fronts and political parties to disrupt legislation while getting donations from gullible Westerners.

About Japan being a liberal democracy, what many probably don't know is that it's been run by a single political party for more than fifty years. What's funny is that it's the Liberal Democratic Party, which is not exactly liberal or democratic. It's actually a conservative party that's been promoting the equivalent of nationalist, pro-Japan policies aka The East Asian Miracle since the end of WW2. It could no longer do that by the 1990s because the country reached late capitalism.

One more thing: Marcos is known as a dictator but legally there's more to that. What he did was took advantage of provisions in the Constitution to declare Martial Law, and then when that expired managed to use a packed assembly to call for charter change and switch to a Presidential-Parliamentary system to continue his reign. A dictator wouldn't bother with doing things legally, which is why some of his opponents refer to his admins as a "Constitutional dictatorship."

Here's where things get weird: when Aquino took over, she did so with no evidence that she won the snap elections. (As I recall, a year later, the only conclusion that watchers could make is that the election results are questionable due to allegations of corruption, but that meant no winner could be declared.) She ordered all officials in national and local governments to step down, replaced the Supreme Court, and then made executive orders while awaiting legislative elections and a plebiscite for a new Constitution. If that's not a dictatorship, then I don't know what is.

Finally, to connect these points to the topic thread, the Philippines did not industrialize not only because it was colonized by Spain (which implemented reforms too late) but because it was colonized by the U.S. which assumed that the country was ready for democracy and independence while keeping it on a tight leash via the Bell Trade Act.

That's a critical point because there's a possibility that the U.S. began to turn against Marcos, which it supported, because he didn't allow for the extention of the act, and supported Aquino and subsequent Presidents because a combination of liberal democracy (which a country dominated by political dynasties and poor education was not ready for) and neoliberalism, which with partial protectionism (foreigners could not be majority owners of businesses, which allowed the local elite to corner markets), made the country permanently dependent on the U.S., i.e., neocolonialism.

The implication is that there's more to this topic, i.e., neocolonialism and making countries "Third World", than the thread starter thinks.
 
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After WW2, Japan was never under a dictatorship, unless you count that of Douglas McArthur.
Except for two short periods, Japan has been run by the same political party for more than fifty years. It has managed to do so because it promoted successful economic policies that would later be described as "the East Asian Miracle." That's not exactly a dictatorship, in the same sense that several Singaporeans will argue that they're not under a dictatorship because they're free to vote for anyone else but still choose Lee's political party (ironically, Harvard conducted surveys in China and discovered the same, i.e., high approval ratings for the Communist Party), but it can be seen as a dictatorship in light of authoritarianism and challenges to Western ideals of individualism and civil liberties.

Here's where the latter becomes more prominent: the East Asian Miracle, which led to success for not just Japan but also South Korea, essentially involves authoritarianism, i.e., economic protectionism, nationalization of key sectors that have no competition, requiring businessmen to work with each other to promote export orientation via conglomerates, etc., heavy infrastructure development which would not be possible in a democratic setting (which is what happened to the Phiippines), and so on.
 
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But I would have thought that liberal democracy has usually been seen as or associated with a positive factor for economic development.

As the kids would say, "I know, right?" But it turns out that in Asia economic development took place because of the opposite. The East Asian Miracle aka the Asian Capital Development Model aka a reworking of what are essentially nineteenth-century Prussian state policies and based on what turns out to be three hundreds years of European mercantilism, involved a strong, unified government working in the long term, following national economic policies, driven towards industrialization via combinations of economic protectionism, nationalization of key industries, heavy infrastructure development to serve as a strong base for not only manufacturing but also for mechanized agriculture, and conglomeration coupled with export orientation.

In light of the topic thread, Japan was actually the first to start this, and did so because its LDP retained power for decades. SK and TW (which had Martial Law for almost four decades) followed, and then the rest of the "tigers," and now followed by the "tiger cubs."

Why so? Apparently, a liberal democracy can become a double-edged sword, i.e., offer a lot of freedom, but also give more powerful foreigners the freedom to manipulate countries that promote that but have weak economies. Such was the fate of countries like the Philippines, which is also connected to the topic thread because it was a Spanish colony, except that what likely led to it de-industrializing wasn't that but its status as a U.S. neocolony.
 
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The Philippines had quite a bit of internal corruption more so then South Korea and Taiwan. The Philippines always had a communist insurgency that went through cycles of strength then weakness. The Moros have an off and on again insurgency in the South.
Leftyhunter
It has had internal corruption across four centuries of Spanish colonization, but the Communist insurgency started only after WW2, and sputtered after a decade. The reason isn't because the military did well or that the Communists failed miserably but because Filipinos are overwhelmingly pro-Christian (most are Catholic) and pro-Western (several int'l surveys reveal that, ironically, not just the U.S. but many U.S. Presidents from both parties have high approval ratings in the Philippines than in the U.S.), and thus will never accept Communism. That's why the best that the CCP could do was use NDF fronts to manipulate government and get donations from gullible Europeans.

Also, the Muslim insurgency is in no way related to the Communist one. In fact, Muslims hate Communists.

But I don't think these are the reasons why the country failed economically, as it did very well during the 1970s, and is doing well only now. Rather, it has to do with economic policies employed.
 
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I guess it must have needed not a little degree of agility, economics wise, to maneuver a country up the ladder fast.

I mean, things like adapting appropriately to new global geopolitical realities, building resilience and strengthening competitiveness, also possibly riding and leveraging optimally on close ties with US and US allies. Things which I am kind of inclined to believe from observing that countries like Japan, SK, Taiwan, possibly also Singapore have done very well.

Which then might have helped them all to build a strong base from which to move forward to the rest of the world.
 

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