How well is 濟 dynasty known in Chinese history as a descendant to Goguryeo?

Hwacha Nation · Oct 8, 2018

I tried but couldn't find info on the 濟 dynasty in English. In Korean it's known as 제나라 (Je dynasty), and was founded when in 765 AD by Yi Jeong Gi 이정기 (李正己 ), a Goguryeo descendant and his Goguryeo refugee followers killed the governor and built a base in Shandong. He stated that he was not a Tang, but a Goguryeo person. His son Yi Nap 이납(李納 ) proclaimed an independent nation in 782 and became King. expanded great area of land, even threatening the Tang capital.

This was the early expansion of the dynasty, indicated by red arrows, as starting from the Yeongju area at the top where Goguryeo prisoners were held, and their landing in Shandong. Eventually they gathered enough strength, 100,000 soldiers, to threaten the capital Chang an, to the left.

And the full extent

The Je dynasty maintained independent ties to Silla and Balhae, became very wealthy thanks to intermediate trade. Later on Silla even sent 20,000 troops to aid the Tang in defeating the Je dynasy, in 819

mariusj · Oct 8, 2018

He was a warlord but not a founder of a dynasty.

His son proclaim himself to be King of Qi. He was defeated by Tang.

Vaderfan · Oct 8, 2018

Hwacha Nation said:
I tried but couldn't find info on the 濟 dynasty in English.

齊 not 濟.

In Korean it's known as 제나라 (Je dynasty), and was founded when in 765 AD by Yi Jeong Gi 이정기 (李正己 ), a Goguryeo descendant and his Goguryeo refugee followers killed the governor and built a base in Shandong.

They didn't really kill the governor, 王玄志 died due to illness. They killed his son preventing him from succeeding the post in 759. The next governor 侯希逸 also wasn't killed, but was relieved of the post due to mutiny.

He stated that he was not a Tang, but a Goguryeo person.

It is noted in the historical sources that he was a Goguryeo person, but I don't think there's any quote recorded anywhere. Though I would be happy to be proven wrong.

Also the title of King of Qi was used by I Nap only during the span of 2 years, from 782 to 784. Neither before nor after that was the title used during the rule of I family.

Cerberus · Oct 8, 2018

For most of Chinese history, to be considered an official dynasty the ruler must have taken the title of 帝 "emperor" and proclaimed his dynasty formally. Yi did neither, so he's considered a rebel warlord, not a dynasty.

bananasinpajamas · Oct 8, 2018

He was a military governor for the Tang of Goguryeo descent that unsuccessfully tried to barely rebel by diverting food supplies to the capital. He later died and his son was refused imperial succession. This is what started his rebellion against authority along with three other military governors. Upon their limited success each took a title of "Prince"; Li became Prince of Qi. The four princes actually submitted to asked another military governor, Li Xilie, to take the title of emperor.

Eventually they came off their high and all four apologized to the Tang Emperor when he asked, and renounced their titles. The honorary title "Prince of Longxiu" was created for Li and he was made military governor of Pinglu

Nothing about Goguryeo refugees setting up a base in Shandong and creating a kingdom and dynasty is true at all. Not at all. No aid from Shilla to the Tang to defeat Qi. This is ludicrous please stop it's embarrassing me just to read it and type about it.

Hwacha Nation · Oct 9, 2018

bananasinpajamas said:
He was a military governor for the Tang of Goguryeo descent that unsuccessfully tried to barely rebel by diverting food supplies to the capital. He later died and his son was refused imperial succession. This is what started his rebellion against authority along with three other military governors. Upon their limited success each took a title of "Prince"; Li became Prince of Qi. The four princes actually submitted to asked another military governor, Li Xilie, to take the title of emperor.

Eventually they came off their high and all four apologized to the Tang Emperor when he asked, and renounced their titles. The honorary title "Prince of Longxiu" was created for Li and he was made military governor of Pinglu

Nothing about Goguryeo refugees setting up a base in Shandong and creating a kingdom and dynasty is true at all. Not at all. No aid from Shilla to the Tang to defeat Qi. This is ludicrous please stop it's embarrassing me just to read it and type about it.

Thank you everyone for the insights. I wanted to know the side of the story not available to me in korean. Hence the post. Since this is not well known in english. But im confused by bananasinpajamas. Silla did aid Tang in squashing the Qi. In the Samguk Sagi it reads.
7월에 당 운주절도사 이사도가 반란을 일으키자, 헌종이 장차 토벌하고자 하여 조칙으로 양주절도사 조공을 보내와 우리 군사를 징발하였다. 왕이 칙지를 받들어 순천군장군 김웅원에게 명해 갑옷을 갖춘 군사 3만명을 거느리고 가서 돕게 하였다.(삼국사기 본기 헌덕왕 11년)
When Isado rebelled in september, King Hyunjong requested our troops. General Kim Woong Won was ordered to take 30,000 armored soldiers and help. (Samguksagi King Hyungdeok 11th year)

I also heard Balhae logistically supported the Qi in fighting the Tang. Qi apparently built their own palace and royal graves, and insisted on being considered equals to the Tang court.

huangpan · Oct 9, 2018

The history you discussed is false, and Koreans like to compile the history of their country.This is evidence

huangpan · Oct 9, 2018

Don't believe in the history of Koreans

Hwacha Nation · Oct 9, 2018

Lets not get extreme here. We are discussing the Qi nation, not venting our frustrations over some niche history adventurists.
Im on board with what other people have said, that Yijeonggi was a warlord. Its interesting how they managed to get to Shandong, and march onto Chang An however.

huangpan · Oct 9, 2018

South Korea is our fragile neighbor. It is good at twisting history and creating history. Why do Koreans always love to tamper with history! Because China and Japan have history books, and South Korea does not, their history in Korea is like a blank paper.

huangpan · Oct 9, 2018

Hwacha Nation said:
Lets not get extreme here. We are discussing the Qi nation, not venting our frustrations over some niche history adventurists.
Im on board with what other people have said, that Yijeonggi was a warlord. Its interesting how they managed to get to Shandong, and march onto Chang An however.

Sorry, don't bother you, I don't mean it.

Vaderfan · Oct 10, 2018

huangpan said:
South Korea is our fragile neighbor. It is good at twisting history and creating history. Why do Koreans always love to tamper with history! Because China and Japan have history books, and South Korea does not, their history in Korea is like a blank paper.

You better stop this condescating tone and accusation. You add nothing to the discussion and you are just spamming the thread. This thread is about Li Zhengji and his descendants, not about your stance to South Korean amateur historiography.

bananasinpajamas · Oct 10, 2018

Hwacha Nation said:
When Isado rebelled in september, King Hyunjong requested our troops. General Kim Woong Won was ordered to take 30,000 armored soldiers and help. (Samguksagi King Hyungdeok 11th year)

Who is Isado? Who is King Hyungjob and General Kim Woong Won? How are they related to this story?

Hwacha Nation said:
Its interesting how they managed to get to Shandong, and march onto Chang An however.

Where are you getting this information? Is this from the epic work of fiction also known as the Hwandan Gogi?

heylouis · Oct 10, 2018

Samguk Sagi, 1145
old book of tang, 941-945
new book of tang, 1044-1060

why people would look into samguk sagi on stories that silla was not in fact familiar, and which book was compiled so late?
late is not its problem, but where you think it got the sources? did the silla authors also recorded the fact the li family traded silla slaves?

Vaderfan · Oct 10, 2018

bananasinpajamas said:
Who is Isado? Who is King Hyungjob and General Kim Woong Won? How are they related to this story?

I Sado is Li Shidao (李師道), Hyunjong is Tang Xianzong,

bananasinpajamas · Oct 11, 2018

Vaderfan said:
I Sado is Li Shidao (李師道), Hyunjong is Tang Xianzong,

Ok so we are talking about the grandson of Li Zhengji. He was betrayed by his mid level officer Zhang Xian and killed by his own general Liu Wu. No need for Silla reinforcements LOL.

And no attack of Chang'an was ever recorded. This must be from the Hwandan Gogi

Hwacha Nation · Oct 11, 2018

If you have nothing to add to the discussion, you should probably stay out of it.
Im just curious what chinese records say about the Qi nation, because I obviously cannot read chinese.
If you learned something new through this discussion, you should consider it a step forward in the pursuit of knowledge, instead of getting nationalistic condescending.
Samguk sagi is famous for its sinocentric viewpoints, so i highly doubt they intended to make Tang dynasty look bad by adding the silla reinforcements that didnt exist. But how would I know, I wasnt there. Thats why I brought it up in this forum. Whats interesting is the wording in the recod feels like Tang dynasty demanded Silla troops, (징발), which means conscription. I assume even though Silla was independent, there was a quasi older brother relationship like in Ming Joseon times, where they send troops to help each other in times of need.

And Would you please stop ending every one of your posts with Hwandan Gogi? That book is about prehistoric neolithic era, not at all relevant to discussion in premodern period.

Silla and tang were close allies that brought down Goguryeo together, which also had an internal mutiny, btw, when it collapsed. So i would assume they work together on other things too. The sillan Chang Bo Go was even a commander in Tang army, before he went back to silla and founded his commercial empire.

heylouis · Oct 12, 2018

add a thing
Samguk sagi is written in chinese, not korean.

one should put efforts if wants to get fruits.

bananasinpajamas · Oct 12, 2018

Hwacha Nation said:
If you have nothing to add to the discussion, you should probably stay out of it.
Im just curious what chinese records say about the Qi nation, because I obviously cannot read chinese.
If you learned something new through this discussion, you should consider it a step forward in the pursuit of knowledge, instead of getting nationalistic condescending.
Samguk sagi is famous for its sinocentric viewpoints, so i highly doubt they intended to make Tang dynasty look bad by adding the silla reinforcements that didnt exist. But how would I know, I wasnt there. Thats why I brought it up in this forum. Whats interesting is the wording in the recod feels like Tang dynasty demanded Silla troops, (징발), which means conscription. I assume even though Silla was independent, there was a quasi older brother relationship like in Ming Joseon times, where they send troops to help each other in times of need.

And Would you please stop ending every one of your posts with Hwandan Gogi? That book is about prehistoric neolithic era, not at all relevant to discussion in premodern period.

Silla and tang were close allies that brought down Goguryeo together, which also had an internal mutiny, btw, when it collapsed. So i would assume they work together on other things too. The sillan Chang Bo Go was even a commander in Tang army, before he went back to silla and founded his commercial empire.

There is no nationalism on my part, and just because I don't go along with your assertions doesn't mean I am not adding anything. I actually added my own assertions to the discussion.

For me, it's just amazing to me where all this information about Korea comes from. Let's take this one step at a time.

Where did you get the information that this Qi "dynasty" was created by Goguryeo refugees settling in Shandong?

Because that and whether or not Tang demanded Silla troops are two entirely different matters.

bananasinpajamas · Oct 12, 2018

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How well is 濟 dynasty known in Chinese history as a descendant to Goguryeo?

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