If there is a god, who created god?

archibald · Dec 6, 2011

Emilio Primo said:
If the universe was cycling infinitely there would be no cause for why it was cycling. So you would have the "effect" which is that the universe is cycling, but you would have no "cause" or why was the universe cycling.

In an infinite cycling universe there would be no initial cycle or why the universe began cycling to begin with. This is an impossible dynamic in our known universe.

No one who believes in God does it purely on faith alone. You wanting people to say this is illogical. This very discussion should help you realize that.

I'll Google this, but selflessness is contrary to survival, it would have never evolved initially because of this fact.

I knew it was a mistake to re-engage.

Emilio Primo · Dec 6, 2011

archibald said:
I knew it was a mistake to re-engage.

You should post to yourself from this point out, this seems like the only way you will get some sense of satisfaction.

archibald · Dec 6, 2011

Emilio Primo said:
You should post to yourself from this point out, this seems like the only way you will get some sense of satisfaction.

Re-engage with your arguments I meant.

ib-issi · Dec 6, 2011

I am not great at this logic business either , but the only way i can think about it is god must be originally nothing , it is the only thing where you dont need a creator, of a creator , etc. so nothing was all there was , which divided into -1 and +1 , this division of nothing produced at the same instance the potential of opposites of everything ( and every shade of all differences ), matter and anti-matter , hot and cold , good and evil , love and hate, light and dark etc ,

This division of 1 into 2 automatically caused time , when there is only one of everything , nothing changes ,so there is no time, only when things divide and therefore change is there such a thing as time.

This may be very naive , but it is the only way i can even contemplate it

At the same time there was nothing , that nothing was also everything ,

Rasta · Dec 6, 2011

MagnaCarta said:
Anyone?

Any thread that prompts religious debate will end up in the religion section.

Rasta · Dec 6, 2011

Emilio Primo said:
Yes they definitely do, but sound and music has to be arranged together in order to make music.

True, as it is with all creations that we have observed. The fundimental charachteristics are repurposed (baking) or reshaped (sculpting) or rearranged (painting).

Creations don't pop up out of thin air. The fundimental framework already exists.

Rasta · Dec 6, 2011

Right but chaos does not lead to highly complex and ordered systems, it quite simply leads to mess. Yes some patterns may arise in those outcomes, but nothing like the complex and highly specialised bio-machines that we call life.

How do you know this? Look at the life in our solar system. Oh wait, of all the matter that makes up our solar system (sun, planets, moons, asteroids, etc) we are the only lifeforms that we have found.

Quite apparently, more of the universe is unsuitable for life than is suitable for life. Why is that?

We look all around Earth and see places that are not likely for life to form (we can only speak in probabilities) then we deny that it is chance that we happen to live on the only rock in our solar system that is suitable for life to our knowledge.

That is a bit strange to me.

Emilio Primo · Dec 6, 2011

Rasta said:
True, as it is with all creations that we have observed. The fundimental charachteristics are repurposed (baking) or reshaped (sculpting) or rearranged (painting).

Creations don't pop up out of thin air. The fundimental framework already exists.

Exactly. So you take these conclusions and go back to the origins of life and then further back to the origins of the universe. You're right. Creations just don't pop out of thin air.

Perix · Dec 6, 2011

MagnaCarta said:
And if creator created us, who created the creator who also created that creator, who also created this creator as well?

I don't know what you think about yourself, but I created myself, in a boring autumn day

Emilio Primo · Dec 6, 2011

ib-issi said:
I am not great at this logic business either , but the only way i can think about it is god must be originally nothing , it is the only thing where you dont need a creator, of a creator , etc. so nothing was all there was , which divided into -1 and +1 , this division of nothing produced at the same instance the potential of opposites of everything ( and every shade of all differences ), matter and anti-matter , hot and cold , good and evil , love and hate, light and dark etc ,

This division of 1 into 2 automatically caused time , when there is only one of everything , nothing changes ,so there is no time, only when things divide and therefore change is there such a thing as time.

This may be very naive , but it is the only way i can even contemplate it

At the same time there was nothing , that nothing was also everything ,

I agree with you that God exist outside of space-time. Change can only occur in space-time, and since God would exist outside of it is why God is never changing and always the same. The concept of infinity is only practical outside of space-time as well.

wittgenstein · Dec 6, 2011

"we live in a three-d world. Imagine we would be 2-d humans. If somebody from outside these world would prick a pencil through our world, we wouldn't be able to see this pencil. for us it would be a circular line. We talk here about God."
beorna
Thinking realistically about God is beyond our comprehension. However, math and logic can give a hint!
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5yxZ5I-zsE"]Dr. Quantum in Flatland - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58fs5yI8K9I&feature=related"]This Is Mind Blowing! - YouTube[/ame]
There are 100,000,000,000 stars in a galaxy. There are at least 100,000,000,000 galaxies.
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation"]Drake equation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
Lets be VERY conservative and say that the Drake equation only gives one civilization per galaxy, that's 100,000,000,000 civilizations!!!!
__________________--
" The thickness of a single one dollar bills measures .0043 inches or .0000000679 miles.......The height of a stack of 100,000,000,000 (one hundred billion) one dollar bills measures 6,786.6 miles. A column of bills this high would extend 28 times higher than the orbiting International Space Station."
FROM
http://www.ehd.org/science_technology_largenumbers.php
And that is only the creation! If there is a God, God sees things from billions of perspectives, simultaneously!

ib-issi · Dec 6, 2011

Emilio Primo said:
I agree with you that God exist outside of space-time. Change can only occur in space-time, and since God would exist outside of it is why God is never changing and always the same. The concept of infinity is only practical outside of space-time as well.

I agree that God (nothing) existed before time , but not that God is never changing , i think that God is ever changing , since it is the division of God that started all shades of everything, no matter how often those divides happen they are all part of God and therefore why we say God is in everything , somehow he never lost consciousness of every part of him that ever divided, that is why God is omnipresent , because everything is still part of him, and he knows everything because he knows the thoughts/experience that every part of him has ever had since the first division. but i think he still has a new experience everytime something in the universe experiences something different , and that is our purpose in life , for God (ultimately us ) to have new experiences.

Rasta · Dec 6, 2011

Emilio Primo said:
Exactly. So you take these conclusions and go back to the origins of life and then further back to the origins of the universe. You're right. Creations just don't pop out of thin air.

So assuming that "god did it", any framework or limitations that we see in our universe must equally apply to god.

Unless god created the framework and limitations out of thin air.

Rasta · Dec 6, 2011

This division of 1 into 2 automatically caused time , when there is only one of everything , nothing changes ,so there is no time, only when things divide and therefore change is there such a thing as time.

I'm not sure about this. It seems to be assuming that god must exist outside of time in order to establish that god exists outside of time.

I'm not sure that change creates time. Time and space are the same thing. Change may merely be a condition of the existence of space/time.

How can anything exist without space, thus being outside of time?

wittgenstein · Dec 6, 2011

http://www.historum.com/philosophy-...6936-life-universe-everything.html#post846380
http://www.historum.com/philosophy-...logy/3270-gnosticism-christianity-s-core.html
http://www.historum.com/religion/26324-constantine-heresy.html

Rasta · Dec 6, 2011

Augustine said that speculating about what God did before creation is pointless because there was no time before creation.
Without time is pure nothing, even without the laws of physics.

(Yoda voice) Ignoring the implications, an answer it does not make.

How can anything exist (even gods) without space?

ib-issi · Dec 6, 2011

Rasta said:
I'm not sure about this. It seems to be assuming that god must exist outside of time in order to establish that god exists outside of time.

I'm not sure that change creates time. Time and space are the same thing. Change may merely be a condition of the existence of space/time.

How can anything exist without space, thus being outside of time?

Just my thinking:-
First of all there was nothing ,that nothing was singular, at the same time it was nothing, because it was singular , it was also everything , So it would never move( it cant it is everywhere) , never have a thought (whats to think about you are everything), never experience anything (nothing ever happens),
Then Division starts , and does not stop, on the first division everything has an opposite to what it was , and only then possibly creates space , because presumably before there were two different things in two different places there was no space , there was just nothing ? and i am speculating that if there is no movement, no thought, no experience , no change then there is no time.

wittgenstein · Dec 6, 2011

"How can anything exist without space, thus being outside of time? "
Rasta
"Physicalists (such as Dennett, Eliminative Materialism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)) deny the existence of qualia.* I hope to show that such a position requires them (if they are consistent) to assert something that they themselves will deny. Therefore, there position is untenable and perhaps absurd.
I believe that Dennett will not deny the obvious fact that a person can visualize a triangle. When one visualizes a triangle one sees a triangle. One does not see neurons firing or whatever.
Dennett has two options. 1. Deny that one sees a triangle. Saying that the triangle is an illusion is not a solution because Dennett (if consistent) must say that there is nothing “what it feels like” to see a triangle.
Or 2, There is an actual physical triangle in one’s brain. Both options are absurd. Therefore Dennett’s position is untenable."
FROM
Triangles and qualia: Philosophy Forums
In other words there is no physical ( volume) manifestation of the triangle. that was just one example. Also, many subatomic particles are said to exist but have no volume ( space)!!!!!
* Qualia (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
PS; Yes, i am raw_thought! and yes, I'm a player. I've been seeing other forums!

Tho philosophy is not a history forum

Emilio Primo · Dec 6, 2011

Rasta said:
So assuming that "god did it", any framework or limitations that we see in our universe must equally apply to god.

Unless god created the framework and limitations out of thin air.

God limited to the framework of our universe would apply if God already existed in a universe He created, which is quite illogical.

Also The evidence the shows that our universe is not infinite, so it did not always exist or it is not all encompassing. Which means our universe had to come from something and not nothing. Science sees this dilemma and has theories such as the multi verse;

The Case for Parallel Universes: Scientific American

And if our universe did come from a "parallel universe" there is no way to say what mechanics or properties were used to created our universe from this one unless you could "travel" there.

Rasta · Dec 6, 2011

God limited to the framework of our universe would apply if God already existed in a universe He created, which is quite illogical.

You just call them the framework of our universe. How do we know that the framework does not exist beyond our universe? Perhaps the framework is instead god's?

Also The evidence the shows that our universe is not infinite, so it did not always exist or it is not all encompassing. Which means our universe had to come from something and not nothing.

We can't say that the matter that makes up our universe was created at a specific point in time. We can say that all the matter that makes up our universe started out at a single point (as evidenced by the Big Bang).

I agree that everything coming from nothing does not make sense. God creating matter from nothing also does not make sense. God coming from nothing does not make any sense either.

Hmmm. So, many of our conceptions do not make sense. The most likely answer is that our answers are wrong in some way or form. Some are obviously more dated than others.

It may be that our universe is really not the universe. Universe means everything. If our universe is not everything, then it is not strictly a universe. It could be that the known universe is only a small fraction of what exists. Or it could be that our universe continually goes through cycles of expansion and contraction.

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