india china
- Thread starter avantivarman
- Start date
Joined Jun 2012
5,274 Posts | 105+
India
It is because these countries were under the foreign control for a very long time unlike India.
Joined Jun 2012
5,274 Posts | 105+
India
Theology and History are two different things. Theologically Quran is eternal and uncreated but Historically it was created in 7th century in Arabia.
Btw Hinduism is also known as Sanatan Dharma which means eternal religion. So theologically Hinduism is also eternal!!!
Theologically, I'm yet to come across a single religion - including cults that were literally born yesterday - which doesn't claim to be eternal.
Last Thursdayism and other schismatic splitters exempted...
Last Thursdayism and other schismatic splitters exempted...
Theologically, I'm yet to come across a single religion - including cults that were literally born yesterday - which doesn't claim to be eternal.
Last Thursdayism and other schismatic splitters exempted...
while all religions and cultures are known for magnifying their historical age, none can beat hinduism if we accept its cyclical time view. so if one accepts claims of all religions, islam is some 7000 years old, so is christianity but hinduism claims it is billion year old.also traditional calendar starts at 3102 bc with death(sharir tyag) of krishna.
what about persia, italy and greece? i do not think that they were ruled by foreigners for any long period of history but italy and greece are related to their pre christian era in forms of art and some literature but persia does not enjoy even that distinction.
Hmm, I can't agree with that statement about Persia. For example, Shahnameh, for example - it's still considered the national epic of Iran, written by a Muslim scholar, but honouring heroes of the pre-Islamic past. Nowruz is still celebrated as the new year, and as I recall, they still use their pre-Islamic calendar for many things. And Iranian architecture owes as much to Ctesiphon as to Arabia. In fact, Arabia owes its architecture to Ctesiphon in more than the other way around...
Sure, it's rather Islamized, but I don't think to any extent more than Greece is Christianized.
i have read shahnamah and it is true that many names such as parvez, bahram , shapur are still popular but it was written in 11th century by firdowsi and i am emphatic that not a single book of pre islamic persia is read by people out there. so there is a great loss of literature and shahnamah alone can not compensate that disconnection.
calendar is islamic and i do not know if any pre islamic calendar can be used.
architecture in medieval persia and india is not wholly of cteisphon but it was a mixture of roman,byzantine and syrian architecture with core being persian.
greece is certainly more related to its pre christian era than iran is with its pre islamic era.
now from what i have been reading on korean connection to shang i can say with full sense of responsibility that chinese claim of continuity of civilization is having lesser foundation than indians. i am making this statement that whereas we can feel vedic gods and goddesses, rituals and rites,social laws and customs but i do not think shang era has any connection with 21st century chinese.
the words are same ,the names in 18 thcentury bc are used still today and in some of the states there is a law that meets rigveda- yes it is there which is so unique -ban on cow slaughter.
this cow is not a small issue and is very emotive one for many indians which means that india has uninterrupted civilization of atleast 3800 years whereas china has same of 3200 years some 500 years younger which means that claims of longest continous civilization rightly belongs to india and india alone.
the words are same ,the names in 18 thcentury bc are used still today and in some of the states there is a law that meets rigveda- yes it is there which is so unique -ban on cow slaughter.
this cow is not a small issue and is very emotive one for many indians which means that india has uninterrupted civilization of atleast 3800 years whereas china has same of 3200 years some 500 years younger which means that claims of longest continous civilization rightly belongs to india and india alone.
Kung Tsui-chang - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Kung Tsui-chang is a direct patrilineal descendant of Confucius and therefore the Shang Kings, whose ancestry is traced back to the Yellow Emperor himself. His family had held aristocratic titles continuously since the shang dynasty fell. The shang veneration of ancestors is the same religion practiced by chinese today, and as for names, the same characters are used (just in different form, like the difference between sans serif and times new roman).
Confucius' family is the world record for oldest traceble lineage.
Genealogical table straight from the yellow emperor to the shang kings, down to confucius and his modern day descendants
孔子世家大宗世系
Joined Apr 2011
10,429 Posts | 21+
Virginia
How can Kongzi trace his lineage back to something that we don't know if it existed or not?
Yellow Emperor
Mandarin Huangdi, legendary Chinese ruler and culture hero; tradition holds that he reigned from 2697 to 2597 He is one of the mythical prehistoric emperors who supposedly created the basic elements of Chinese civilization. His wife is said to have developed silk production. Along with the semimythical Lao Tzu, he was associated in the traditional Chinese folk culture with the founding of Taoism.
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry/YellowEm
All of the shang kings are confirmed to have existed, the shang started around 1600 BC so they still have the oldest confirmed traceble lineage than any other family on earth.
Joined Apr 2011
10,429 Posts | 21+
Virginia
I completely misread what you posted. I thought it said that Kongzi could trace his lineage back to the Yellow Emperor.
One thing I wish the Chinese would stop doing is touting anything about the area, notice I didn't say country, before the Shang dynasty. The Yellow Emperor cannot be proven, thus far, and all we know of the, supposed, Xia Dynasty is that people lived in the area at that time.
the lunar and solar dynasty are mentioned in rigveda which is earlier than shang and even now there are families who can trace their source to lunar and solar dynasty and these are recorded in vamsavalis often published in hindi and other regional languages, so if tracing ones family to oldest person is criterion of continuity,china has no chance against india.
by the way india has and had a caste system which effectively prevented mixture of blood so indian claims are sounder but chinese married commoners too and so no one can tell if they are of shang descent.
if yellow and red emperors are to be included then i do not see any reason for not taking krishna who traditionally died in 3102 bc and by that time india was more advanced than china which was a rural civilization but areas under delhi were having an urban culture. so this claim can be taken.
what gods and goddesses are there in shang times( i need contemporary evidence not zhou period as iam using rigveda) which are worshipped in chinese family today? can they be placed beyond 1200 bc?
which chinese state has any law used in shang times and which is unique?
there is not a shred of line in china before 1300 bc but india has morethan 500 pages on that.
iam providing you names such as bharata, arundhati ,vishwamitra and sita which were there in 1700 bc. can you give me any name in chinese before 1300 bc?
Joined Mar 2011
3,342 Posts | 20+
dragon's area
oh, just curious, can't caste system of india lead the inbreeding marriage?
and ancient china have surname tree, that is easy to know the descent.
Last edited:
what inbreeding marriage! in india there is a concept of gotra which means that that if you belong to that gotra you can not be married to a person of same gotra.
to illustrate, i belong to kashyap gotra and therefore i can not marry anyone with that gotra even if she belongs to my own caste on the assumption that kashyap was founder of the family and so we both would be brothers and sisters in that way. how can you call this inbreeding?
however i know that chinese have similar concepts and in pre mao era abhorred inbreding( i really think here we meet) but i do not know the present situation.
Joined Mar 2011
3,342 Posts | 20+
dragon's area
oh, just curious, because common to say if both persons come from same caste , they will have some overlay bloodline. (I thought it personally.
)china had seriously law about it indeed, the law started from early period of west period. (11 century BC) , later became formal law.
Joined Jun 2012
5,274 Posts | 105+
India
oh, just curious, because common to say if both persons come from same caste , they will have some overlay bloodline. (I thought it personally.
In every caste there are subcastes. (even in some cases sub sub castes are also present) One has to marry person from the same caste althaugh the different subcaste then his/her own subcaste. Marriage in same subcaste isn't allowed. Besides even in different subcaste marriage is allowed only if there isn't any marital relation between two families for 7 generations. So there is rarely any chance of crossing of the blood line.
oh, just curious, because common to say if both persons come from same caste , they will have some overlay bloodline. (I thought it personally.
china had seriously law about it indeed, the law started from early period of west period. (11 century BC) , later became formal law.
does chinese society still follow the law or they have become westernized? just want to know.
Joined Mar 2011
3,342 Posts | 20+
dragon's area
Last edited:
I see now, look like caste is a huge system unit, thanks for your information.
so how do know the 7 generations of two families? I mean how to keep their memory from family ancestors and be sure their list is accurate?
that don't need to choice at all, because the rules of west zhou dynasty had been similiar with today western, so there have not "become westernized", yes, but it is one kind of default rules, most people still obey it, the only difference is the dstinguish line became more clearly.
More History Discussions
Trending History Discussions
-
The Great Captains of History - How Many Battles? - Version 7- Started by DiocletianIsBetterThanYou
- Replies: 861
-
-
The Great Captains of History - How Many Battles? - Version 5
- Started by DiocletianIsBetterThanYou
- Replies: 3K
-
The Diversity Of Early African Architecture/Ruins Thread- Started by Kilwa Sultanate
- Replies: 2K
-