Inside a country: Italy

Midas · Feb 13, 2016

Since we spoke of Italian nationalism, which I do agree it feels weak, I have a question.

I guess that the Italian nationalists (whoever those are) have internal discussions and do not get heard internationally (like in this forum). So, what are they talking about?

I have a friend who is into linguistic studies and we speak a lot about historical linguistics. One matter he refuses to discuss with me is the Etruscans. He is allergic to it, although he comes from the region they lived in. One of the reasons they never fascinated him is nationalism he said. Why is that? What is the role of the Etruscans in Italian nationalism?

AlpinLuke · Feb 13, 2016

Midas said:
Since we spoke of Italian nationalism, which I do agree it feels weak, I have a question.

I guess that the Italian nationalists (whoever those are) have internal discussions and do not get heard internationally (like in this forum). So, what are they talking about?

I have a friend who is into linguistic studies and we speak a lot about historical linguistics. One matter he refuses to discuss with me is the Etruscans. He is allergic to it, although he comes from the region they lived in. One of the reasons they never fascinated him is nationalism he said. Why is that? What is the role of the Etruscans in Italian nationalism?

Mmh, Etruscans are absent and when they are present they are like Celts here: they are linked to regionalism more than to nationalism. The same about Lombards.

Modern Italian nationalism is more a mere patriotism connected with the weak identity of this Italy. Fascism caused a great damage to any nationalism connected with historical past. Fascist rhetoric was full of it.

Midas · Feb 13, 2016

AlpinLuke said:
Mmh, Etruscans are absent and when they are present they are like Celts here: they are linked to regionalism more than to nationalism. The same about Lombards.

Modern Italian nationalism is more a mere patriotism connected with the weak identity of this Italy. Fascism caused a great damage to any nationalism connected with historical past. Fascist rhetoric was full of it.

Ok, thank you for that explanation.

M.E.T.H.O.D. · Feb 13, 2016

Midas said:
Since we spoke of Italian nationalism, which I do agree it feels weak, I have a question.

I guess that the Italian nationalists (whoever those are) have internal discussions and do not get heard internationally (like in this forum). So, what are they talking about?

I have a friend who is into linguistic studies and we speak a lot about historical linguistics. One matter he refuses to discuss with me is the Etruscans. He is allergic to it, although he comes from the region they lived in. One of the reasons they never fascinated him is nationalism he said. Why is that? What is the role of the Etruscans in Italian nationalism?

The Roman Empire is usually associated with Italian nationalism...You know those "Italy used to be the most civilized nation in the world", "We had the greatest war machine in history" kind of talk. The Roman Empire is seen as a an inspiration because it was a period where Italy was strong and indipendent, with no foreign influence (Italian nationalists are usually anti-USA and anti-EU).
I'd say that the Etruscan civilization is a sort of a black hole when it comes to nationalism or regionalism. Etruscans are rarely mentioned anywhere to be honest, while peoples like the various gallic tribes and native populations of Southern Italy are much more marketable from a political point of view.
For example, several North nationalists/regionalists/independentists claim to be Celt instead of Italian (or "Roman" used as a pejorative) and say that they have Celt blood running in their veins. That's kinda hilarious considering that the Gaulish population of Italy was assimilated more than two thousand years ago.
In fact most regionalistic movements have little factual basis: for example, the symbol of the Northern Leage (which used to be a regionalistic movement until a couple of years ago) is the knight Alberto da Giussano who fought against the HRE in Lombardy. His figure, however, is a literary creation.
Several Sicilians honor the Sicilian Vesper as the start of the Sicilian nationalist movement but fail to mention that the uprising in Sicily was part of a wider conflict involving the papacy, France, Aragon and the Empire.

The merchant of Venice · Feb 13, 2016

Midas said:
Since we spoke of Italian nationalism, which I do agree it feels weak, I have a question.

I guess that the Italian nationalists (whoever those are) have internal discussions and do not get heard internationally (like in this forum). So, what are they talking about?

I have a friend who is into linguistic studies and we speak a lot about historical linguistics. One matter he refuses to discuss with me is the Etruscans. He is allergic to it, although he comes from the region they lived in. One of the reasons they never fascinated him is nationalism he said. Why is that? What is the role of the Etruscans in Italian nationalism?

no one really cares about etruscans, as for the nationalism of your friend, maybe is that because the most common origin of etruscan that it is heard in italian schools is that they comed from anatolia, so they are seen as "foreign" which is strengthened by the fact that they didn't really have any big long term trace in italy, same as the samnites or other people that were defeated by the romans, the only exception as other have said is the celts (but is mostly nonsense anyway). when italians look back at ancient italy we think and identify with rome, the others were supporting actors, like the guys shot by rambo

personally i've never seen the etruscan as "italians" they are a mysterious people that lived there and then disappeared in the roman blob, yes I know they actually influenced rome a lot but it is something "hidden" not something that you really perceive on the exterior, if you get what i mean

Midas · Feb 13, 2016

M.E.T.H.O.D. said:
The Roman Empire is usually associated with Italian nationalism...You know those "Italy used to be the most civilized nation in the world", "We had the greatest war machine in history" kind of talk. The Roman Empire is seen as a an inspiration because it was a period where Italy was strong and indipendent, with no foreign influence (Italian nationalists are usually anti-USA and anti-EU).
I'd say that the Etruscan civilization is a sort of a black hole when it comes to nationalism or regionalism. Etruscans are rarely mentioned anywhere to be honest, while peoples like the various gallic tribes and native populations of Southern Italy are much more marketable from a political point of view.
For example, several North nationalists/regionalists/independentists claim to be Celt instead of Italian (or "Roman" used as a pejorative) and say that they have Celt blood running in their veins. That's kinda hilarious considering that the Gaulish population of Italy was assimilated more than two thousand years ago.
In fact most regionalistic movements have little factual basis: for example, the symbol of the Northern Leage (which used to be a regionalistic movement until a couple of years ago) is the knight Alberto da Giussano who fought against the HRE in Lombardy. His figure, however, is a literary creation.
Several Sicilians honor the Sicilian Vesper as the start of the Sicilian nationalist movement but fail to mention that the uprising in Sicily was part of a wider conflict involving the papacy, France, Aragon and the Empire.

The merchant of Venice said:
no one really cares about etruscans, as for the nationalism of your friend, maybe is that because the most common origin of etruscan that it is heard in italian schools is that they comed from anatolia, so they are seen as "foreign" which is strengthened by the fact that they didn't really have any big long term trace in italy, same as the samnites or other people that were defeated by the romans, the only exception as other have said is the celts (but is mostly nonsense anyway). when italians look back at ancient italy we think and identify with rome, the others were supporting actors, like the guys shot by rambo

personally i've never seen the etruscan as "italians" they are a mysterious people that lived there and then disappeared in the roman blob, yes I know they actually influenced rome a lot but it is something "hidden" not something that you really perceive on the exterior, if you get what i mean

Thank you both for these insights. I think I have misunderstood the whole Etruscan thing.

Just a note: My friend has nothing to do with nationalism. The contrary!

Maybe, in the regions where Etruscans lived there are some people using them for regional ideologies.

Tulun · Feb 13, 2016

AlpinLuke said:
It happened. After the amnesty for Fascists [an other historical Italian oddity], some right movement created the MSI-DN. Since it's illegal to be Fascist in Italy they simply became the social national right.

Then they became moderate when National Alliance appeared. And I've been in that party, just for the record.

i don't think it is an Italian oddity, at its peak more than a fifth of the Italian adults were fascist party members, so of course you can't outlaw/punish that huge segment of the society. same thing happened in post communist countries and former commie party members after the fall of the regimes, nothing, they became new democrats. you simply can't outcast that many people (well it was tried in Iraq with Baath members after 2003 and we see the consequences to this day...).

AlpinLuke · Feb 13, 2016

Tulun said:
i don't think it is an Italian oddity, at its peak more than a fifth of the Italian adults were fascist party members, so of course you can't outlaw/punish that huge segment of the society. same thing happened in post communist countries and former commie party members after the fall of the regimes, nothing, they became new democrats. you simply can't outcast that many people (well it was tried in Iraq with Baath members after 2003 and we see the consequences to this day...).

Odd it was odd, but politically obvious: you cannot erase 20 years of territorial administration substituting Fascists with newcomers ...

About this, note an aspect: the penal code of the Fascist regime was so suitable for the power that the Republic kept it for decades and decades [with obvious complaints from the left].

In poor words, the Fascist penal code [and so the penal code of the Republic] was inquisitive. Something which terrified Anglo-Saxon jurists and lawyers.

The notorious Rocco penal code has been valid until 1989 CE [Can you believe this? It's like Federal Germany kept the Nazi penal code until 1989 ...].

Ayatollah · Feb 13, 2016

Midas said:
Personally I am visiting Italy and have friends there (Northern Italy not south). I had also an Italian flatmate once upon a time. I don't really agree with this oversimplification.

I don't have friends in the south, but I guess there the feeling of closeness to Greece is much stronger than the north, because of historical reasons. The same I see abroad, where generally Greeks and Italians do clump together. See for example NYC.

Also, regarding the culture etc you spoke of, I am surprised you mention Iran (I don't say there are no similarities), Russia (wtf???) and skip Albania and Western Turkey. Even Bulgaria qualifies in some aspects having somewhat similar culture.

In any case, I agree 100% with what you said "In the end,the West at large is a bad plagiarization of our forefathers". "Our forefathers" goes I guess to the Graeco-Roman world right?

May I ask your nationality and country of origin?

Solidaire · Feb 13, 2016

Marcus Aurelius said:
I was born in a part of Italy that was first colonized by the greeks. In some parts a sort of greek dialect called griko it's still spoken, for example I guess you could understand a bit of what they are singing here?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htKsZVDVNEs

because I can't, not even a word, even thought I am way closer geographically to them (less than 100 km) than you are.

Griko is a very interesting case of a dialect saved and shaped in seclusion from the parent language. There are two theories regarding its origins, one claims that it goes back to the Ancient Greek colonization of Magna Grecia, the other that it is the remnant of Byzantines. Probably both theories are partly correct, and Griko is a syncretism of ancient, Byzantine, Latin and Italian influences. I can understand many words, but there are also others that are Greek, but not recognizable in modern Greek anymore. Also, there are words that are clearly Italian or Latin in origin. Midas, our linguistics expert, can offer his more professional insight to the matter.

Whatever the case, the dialect is surely worth saving and the songs written in it are quite lovely. They were sung by our "national" singer here some decades ago and were, and still are, rather popular. A year ago, when Tsipras visited Renzi and they exchanged gifts, he offered a CD with these recordings to the Italian PM, to receive a tie in return. I doubt any of them have any use for each others' gifts, but such is politics.

My personal favourite is this song (andra mou paei):
[ame="http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y5FoAzUKD-E"]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y5FoAzUKD-E[/ame]

Midas · Feb 13, 2016

Ayatollah said:
May I ask your nationality and country of origin?

It is complicated. I have roots in Greece, Sweden , Turkey and Belgium.

xander.XVII · Feb 13, 2016

Solidaire said:
Griko is a very interesting case of a dialect saved and shaped in seclusion from the parent language. There are two theories regarding its origins, one claims that it goes back to the Ancient Greek colonization of Magna Grecia, the other that it is the remnant of Byzantines. Probably both theories are partly correct, and Griko is a syncretism of ancient, Byzantine, Latin and Italian influences. I can understand many words, but there are also others that are Greek, but not recognizable in modern Greek anymore. Also, there are words that are clearly Italian or Latin in origin. Midas, our linguistics expert, can offer his more professional insight to the matter.

Whatever the case, the dialect is surely worth saving and the songs written in it are quite lovely. They were sung by our "national" singer here some decades ago and were, and still are, rather popular. A year ago, when Tsipras visited Renzi and they exchanged gifts, he offered a CD with these recordings to the Italian PM, to receive a tie in return. I doubt any of them have any use for each others' gifts, but such is politics.

My personal favourite is this song (andra mou paei):
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y5FoAzUKD-E

Obviously Griko is worth being preserved as any language in the world, similarly I am all in favour of preserving and saving minority languages such as Arbereshe (the language of the oldest Albanian communities in Italy).

Solidaire · Feb 13, 2016

AlpinLuke said:
I've been in Greece. "On the continent", near Athens, so not on the touristic isles. Greece in the inland is absolutely similar to Italy. Like Portugal, once you live Lisbon. I adore the real Mediterranean atmospheres. You see, we are not Greek and Latins ... we are Mediterranean.

P.S. For accuracy, this is valid also for Portugal, even if it's not on the Mediterranean Sea, but on the Atlantic Ocean.

I have been to Rome, Florence, Venice, for about 5 days in each city, and a couple of days in Milan. Also in the Italian part of Switzerland. In all my travels abroad I've never felt as much as home as in Italy (especially in Rome). If I ever had to leave my home country to live in another, Italy would have been my first choice. So yes, from my little personal experience, I agree with you.

I have plans to tour southern Italy one day, the Naples region and Sicily. Also, to explore the Tuscany region outside Florence, which is probably my favourite part of Italy. If only they knew how to better grill a steak, cooking the inside as well.

Midas · Feb 13, 2016

Solidaire said:
If only they knew how to better grill a steak, cooking the inside as well.

That is not about Italian cuisine. You will see it everywhere nowadays. The problem is that many chefs try to get the perfect cooking time (medium, well done outside with some redness and juiciness inside) but fail. You have probably seen this happening in cooking TV-shows as well. When I order medium in Sweden, 40% of the times I get undercooked steaks. Whenever, I didn't protest I got

... I am sensitive to raw meat.

AlpinLuke · Feb 14, 2016

Midas said:
That is not about Italian cuisine. You will see it everywhere nowadays. The problem is that many chefs try to get the perfect cooking time (medium, well done outside with some redness and juiciness inside) but fail. You have probably seen this happening in cooking TV-shows as well. When I order medium in Sweden, 40% of the times I get undercooked steaks. Whenever, I didn't protest I got ... I am sensitive to raw meat.

Yes, this is tremendous ... anyway, about the "Fiorentina" [a steak with the bone, typical of the area of Florence] you have to consider that for years it has been illegal [because of the mad cow disease]. So that there were pushers in the dark offering Fiorentina steaks like cocaine ...

But this has meant a lower quality of the products.

Anyway, being a very big steak, the Fiorentina is traditionally red in its internal aspect ...

The merchant of Venice · Feb 14, 2016

Midas said:
Thank you both for these insights. I think I have misunderstood the whole Etruscan thing.

Just a note: My friend has nothing to do with nationalism. The contrary!

Maybe, in the regions where Etruscans lived there are some people using them for regional ideologies.

wait, is your friend disliking the etruscans because he associate them to nationalistic movements?

it's honestly really strange...

Midas · Feb 14, 2016

AlpinLuke said:
Yes, this is tremendous ... anyway, about the "Fiorentina" [a steak with the bone, typical of the area of Florence] you have to consider that for years it has been illegal [because of the mad cow disease]. So that there were pushers in the dark offering Fiorentina steaks like cocaine ...

But this has meant a lower quality of the products.

Anyway, being a very big steak, the Fiorentina is traditionally red in its internal aspect ...

OK, so is this kind of meat kinda prepared in a special way (like smoked first) or is it indeed raw inside.

Midas · Feb 14, 2016

The merchant of Venice said:
wait, is your friend disliking the etruscans because he associate them to nationalistic movements? it's honestly really strange...

Forget what I said. I read our correspondence again and I had misunderstood his point.

VHS · Feb 14, 2016

AlpinLuke said:
Yes, this is tremendous ... anyway, about the "Fiorentina" [a steak with the bone, typical of the area of Florence] you have to consider that for years it has been illegal [because of the mad cow disease]. So that there were pushers in the dark offering Fiorentina steaks like cocaine ...

But this has meant a lower quality of the products.

Anyway, being a very big steak, the Fiorentina is traditionally red in its internal aspect ...

Funny, but I have never found steaks to be particularly appealing.
Is the tenderloin really more common after the mad cow disease?
The talk is that beef without bones or spinal tissues will be OK.
(This reminds me of the thin slices of beef that are common in Chinese and Vietnamese cuisines.)

katiuzza · Mar 4, 2016

totally agree!!

AlpinLuke said:
I've been in Greece. "On the continent", near Athens, so not on the touristic isles. Greece in the inland is absolutely similar to Italy. Like Portugal, once you live Lisbon. I adore the real Mediterranean atmospheres. You see, we are not Greek and Latins ... we are Mediterranean.

P.S. For accuracy, this is valid also for Portugal, even if it's not on the Mediterranean Sea, but on the Atlantic Ocean.

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