Is France the most successful military power in European history ?

Joined Oct 2018
150 Posts | 19+
Sweden
What most battles ?

Sluys, Crecy, Poitiers, Agincourt and Cravant ?

France wasn't focused on war ?

What Charles VIII, Louis XII, Francis I and Henry II were doing in Italy, Flanders and etc. for more than 50 years ? Waging war

What France was doing constantly since 1635 up until 1714 ? Waging war

Hell, William III of Orange was telling stories to whole Europe about Louis XIV and how he wants to have whole continent on it's knees. Europe was creating coalition after coalition to contain France, because everyone understood that Louis won't be satisfied and how powerful he is.

During Revolutionary wars, French achieved victories before Napoleon even took command of Italian army. By 1796 French overrun Austrian Netherlands and Dutch Republic. French crushed them. By 1796 France kicked Spain, Dutch Republic and Prussia out of the war. In place of Dutch Republic was created Batavian Republic and Austrian Netherlands annexed. Spain became an ally. All of that without Napoleon and before he begun his first campaign.

What France dreamed about after Franco - Prussian war in 1870 - 71 ? Waging war against Germany and take back territories.

French showed themselves to be so ,, passive '' and ,, peace loving '' during Wars of Religion. Yeah, for sure. I bet they were collecting flowers during all those decades, until new King Henry IV ( Henry of Navarre ) came and told them to stop.

France also didn't exist during times of Caesar. Do you know why that land is even called ,, France '' ? How word ,, France '' originated ?

When looking at the people of the modern day geographical territory called france their deities, practices and culture was not very focused on warfare compared to the germanic peoples.

How clever you are to notice that France didnt exist at that time very very clever and not obtuse at all.

I remember there was a tribe called the Franks that took over gaul or whatever and it was then called land of the franks.
 
Joined Oct 2013
24,148 Posts | 6,119+
Europix
When looking at the people of the modern day geographical territory called france their deities, practices and culture was not very focused on warfare compared to the germanic peoples.

And?

What exactly have "not very focused on warfare" to do with the reality of how many wars France was involved in?

Is there a correlation? Did France fought in less wars then, say Prussia, or Saxony?
 
Joined Oct 2013
24,148 Posts | 6,119+
Europix
I was thinking: a lot of Brits around are putting forward France' military record, even when comparing with England/BE/UK.

IDK, should that ring a bell? ;)
 
Joined Oct 2018
150 Posts | 19+
Sweden
And?

What exactly have "not very focused on warfare" to do with the reality of how many wars France was involved in?

Is there a correlation? Did France fought in less wars then, say Prussia, or Saxony?

Okay i was misstaken if the amount of conflicts one is involved in and wins is the only thing that determines if an army is top tier.
 
Joined Sep 2016
1,606 Posts | 759+
Georgia
How clever you are to notice that France didnt exist at that time very very clever and not obtuse at all.

I remember there was a tribe called the Franks that took over gaul or whatever and it was then called land of the franks.
Franks established themselves in Gaul when Caesar was already dead for several centuries.

How arrogant are you ? You are try to use sarcasm on me, while being completely uneducated in subject matter. Go and do some reading, than comeback.

When looking at the people of the modern day geographical territory called france their deities, practices and culture was not very focused on warfare compared to the germanic peoples.
So that's why Italians were amazing warriors for thousand years ? Well, Roman Republic and Roman Empire were top military power. Wonder why Italians weren't so badass after that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sailorsam
Joined Oct 2013
24,148 Posts | 6,119+
Europix
Last edited:
Okay i was misstaken if the amount of conflicts one is involved in and wins is the only thing that determines if an army is top tier.

It's not exactly about that.

One cannot make a "palmares" on warfare, on the history of a long period like in "I threw 56m, You only 54, I'm better".

But You can ask, like the OP did, if "x" is the most successful military power.

Behind the zillions of battles fought, there's an uncontested fact: in the last millennium, France remains the most successful.

From 12th c, no matter what it lost or won, it was always a great power, no matter how things went, it came back and it remained a great power.

Maybe Poland,Sweden, Prussia, England, Russia, Hungary, Germany, Spain, at their pic were greater (in some cases definitely greater). But, unlike France, on certain periods . Some lost almost everything from the former military greatness/power, some came later.

But France was always there.

And that is impressive.

That, IMHO, makes France the most successful European military power. As Rome was in the European antiquity.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Frank81 and Gvelion
Joined Sep 2016
1,606 Posts | 759+
Georgia
Oh dear, I think there's some serious hypocrisy here! The Hundred Years War actually consisted of three separate wars. The first was ended by the Treaty of Bretigny and was a crushing English victory. The second was won by Henry V, and saw him acknowledged as heir to the French throne, and the third saw a politically-divided England lose most of its continental possessions.

Note how some posters want to lump those three wars together and just look at the final outcome, but in the case of the Napoleonic Wars they want to split it into several smaller wars to claim some of them as French victories!
Hundred Years War is accepted term and definition of those conflicts in historiography.

Why do you separate even those wars ? Why don't you mention previous wars between French and English kings ? What about Capetian - Plantagenet rivalry ? Why don't we combine all those wars into one ? Why don't we just label them as ,, Anglo - French wars '' ? French only captured Calais in 1558. No treaty was signed in 1453 or for next decades. However, historians still label 1337 - 1453 conflict as Hundred Years War. Why is that ? Because Edward III and next kings pushed claims for French Crown ? Well, English monarchs gave up claims for French crown only in the beginning of 19th century. So, by that logic war was going on for more that 400 years.

That is why I am using terms and dates that were established by historians. At least, by majority and how it is usually used in history books.

Don't think that you are the smartest one here and don't try to call others hypocrites.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sailorsam
Joined Oct 2018
15,357 Posts | 16,546+
Sydney
Oh dear, I think there's some serious hypocrisy here! The Hundred Years War actually consisted of three separate wars. The first was ended by the Treaty of Bretigny and was a crushing English victory. The second was won by Henry V, and saw him acknowledged as heir to the French throne, and the third saw a politically-divided England lose most of its continental possessions.

Note how some posters want to lump those three wars together and just look at the final outcome, but in the case of the Napoleonic Wars they want to split it into several smaller wars to claim some of them as French victories!

It was four wars. You missed out the Caroline War, which was 1369-1389 and was a French victory. So, it goes English victory, French victory, English victory, French victory. I agree that the discussion should be taking more account of this fact (four wars rather than one), especially if the different Napoleonic wars are to be treated separately, but I do think I remember Gvelion acknowledging the different 'phases' in a previous post. I prefer to think of a series of multiple wars that one can think of alongside the wars fought under John, Henry III, etc.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gvelion
Joined Oct 2018
15,357 Posts | 16,546+
Sydney
When looking at the people of the modern day geographical territory called france their deities, practices and culture was not very focused on warfare compared to the germanic peoples.

How clever you are to notice that France didnt exist at that time very very clever and not obtuse at all.

I remember there was a tribe called the Franks that took over gaul or whatever and it was then called land of the franks.

I don't know a lot about the Gauls, but they seem to have been pretty warlike! It was my impression that they had some kind of warrior class. They appear to have been prized as mercenaries (e.g. in the army of Carthage), and as auxiliaries in the Roman army (e.g. their use at the Battle of Carrhae). They also sacked Rome in 390 BC.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gvelion
Joined Mar 2016
1,222 Posts | 906+
Australia
Hundred Years War is accepted term and definition of those conflicts in historiography.

Why do you separate even those wars ? Why don't you mention previous wars between French and English kings ? What about Capetian - Plantagenet rivalry ? Why don't we combine all those wars into one ? Why don't we just label them as ,, Anglo - French wars '' ? French only captured Calais in 1558. No treaty was signed in 1453 or for next decades. However, historians still label 1337 - 1453 conflict as Hundred Years War. Why is that ? Because Edward III and next kings pushed claims for French Crown ? Well, English monarchs gave up claims for French crown only in the beginning of 19th century. So, by that logic war was going on for more that 400 years.

That is why I am using terms and dates that were established by historians. At least, by majority and how it is usually used in history books.

Don't think that you are the smartest one here and don't try to call others hypocrites.

He is correct about the Hundred Years War, though, it absolutely was a bunch of separate wars that were divided by long periods of peace. Almost a decade passed between the signing of the Treaty of Bretigny and the outbreak of fighting at the end of the decade, and similarly almost the entire reign of Henry IV saw very little major fighting. Like Mycroft said, it's strange that most people divide the wars that Napoleon fought into separate wars (e.g. the Coalition Wars, the Peninsula War, the invasion of Russia) and similarly the three Punic Wars are considered separate wars, and yet this is different with the Hundred Years War. So, a war that spanned 116 years and the reigns of ten different monarchs is somehow the same war, but Napoleon fought different wars even though he was in all of them and they spanned only a decade. Right...

I suppose nationalism has a lot to do with it, as in the English want people to acknowledge that they won a few of the wars, and the French want everyone to think they won everything. It's a shame some people have this mentality. I think your tone is a little bit overly defensive. He made some good points, and you shouldn't dismiss all of them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gvelion
Joined Jul 2018
590 Posts | 247+
Hong Kong
Last edited:
in the last millennium, France remains the most successful.

From 12th c, no matter what it lost or won, it was always a great power, no matter how things went, it came back and it remained a great power.

Maybe Poland,Sweden, Prussia, England, Russia, Hungary, Germany, Spain, at their pic were greater (in some cases definitely greater). But, unlike France, on certain periods . Some lost almost everything from the former military greatness/power, some came later.

But France was always there.

And that is impressive.

That, IMHO, makes France the most successful European military power. As Rome was in the European antiquity.

I strongly disagree with you. France is always a great power and have a comeback in the latest milliennium (from AD 1000 - 2000 I suppose) ? Obviously you didn’t have immense knowledge about the European military history. In fact....

Until the very late 15th century, France did not even accomplish the total centralization of monarchial rule exerting all over the roughly nowadays French realm by smashing all rival fedual lords. Until then, France was hardly called a “great power”. Until the reign of Philip Augustus, most part of the nowadays France was even once ruled by the Norman-English dynasty known as the Plantagenet, which once greatly overpowered the much fragile Capets. And at the earlier period, the 11th century, the Kingdom of France was weak being plagued by rampant fedualism. At the reign of the First Capetian King Hugh Capet. One noble accordingly scornfully answered to the monarch like this : "Who made you king ? ". Oh...what a powerful French kingdom.

Needless to mention the Hundred Years War and the Italian Wars for which a number of French defeat in many field battles and sieges were renowned. Even in the Thirty Years Wars, the French lost few battles. Even the Swedes won more battles than the French by just counting total figure.

The Hungarian Black Army was the strongest in the late 15th century until AD 1490.
The Spanish and the later Habsburg Empire pretty much dominated the 16th century, extending the military superiority to the early 17th century.
The French military merely reached the climax and obtained the dominance of Europe during the reign of the famous Sun King Louis XIV from around 1680s to 1714, and then declined again in mid-18th century during the reign of Louis V through later achieved som remarkable victories in the late-18th century Anglo-French War prior to AD 1789.

Hereafter France once again elevated to the golden age by the French Revolutionary Era and the mighty Napoleonic Era. After that, the French military domination was broken and began to enter into the long, long stagnant period with military leadership and theories steadily being eroded and surpassed by the dangerous neighbour Prussia-Germany.

Talking about the consistently naval supremacy in history, it was England-Britain rather than France. Talking about the consistently strongest cavalry force, it was Poles rather than French (pretty close for this one though...but the Poles still prevailed in length of dominating period). Talking about the military organization, tactics, arms, equipment and theories in modern era, it was Prussia-Germany achieving far more than other nations. Talking about the consistently strategic depth in territories and the largest amount of available military force since the early 18th century, it was Russia-Soviet far surpassing other European nations. Moreover, the consistently strongest air force from WW1 to WW2 was forged by Germany, followed by Britain and Russia-Soviet. The Poles even had their own incredible air force in exile after their own country had fallen to the wrath of Nazi Germany, though same could be said to the (Vichy) French for their navy.

So just dismiss such consistently French awesomeness in military strength and dominance and re-examine the facts through thorough analysis.
 
Joined Feb 2016
5,108 Posts | 715+
Japan
I know for most of the large field battles during the 100 years war the french got badly defeated even though they always had vastly superior forces.

Im not really an expert but i know that the germanic tribes were considered vastly superior warriors to the celts of france Caesar said so himself.
Also when it kind of comes to stuff like language, religion etc france compared to germanic countries werent that focused on war, they were kind of chill. Im not saying they were bad at war im just saying that other than Napoleon they never really stood out as a war making country.


When did Caesar say that?
Since he spent most of his life fighting Celts it seems odd he would make them sound weak.
He certainly considered the Belgae and Nervi to be skillful warriors.

Tacitus claimed the Germans were stronger and braver than the Celts IN HIS day, but he said they were like the Celts that Caesar had fought and the celts of his time had been modernized.
 
Joined Oct 2013
24,148 Posts | 6,119+
Europix
Obviously you didn’t have immense knowledge about the European military history. [...]
So just dismiss such consistently French awesomeness in military strength and dominance and re-examine the facts through thorough analysis.

It's obvious I don't immensely know the European military history. I never pretended I have even a good knowledge. As I didn't talked about any "awesomeness".

That said, thank You for Your throughout post.

On Polish cavalry, British navy, German theory, etc, etc, etc, I think You might had missed this part in my post:

Maybe Poland,Sweden, Prussia, England, Russia, Hungary, Germany, Spain, at their pic were greater (in some cases definitely greater). But, unlike France, on certain periods . Some lost almost everything from the former military greatness/power, some came later.
 
Joined Oct 2018
15,357 Posts | 16,546+
Sydney
Last edited:
I didn't go into this thread necessarily thinking I'd be convinced, but having read every post, it seems to me that France is indeed the most consistently successful European military power over the past millennium.
 
Joined Sep 2016
1,606 Posts | 759+
Georgia
He is correct about the Hundred Years War, though, it absolutely was a bunch of separate wars that were divided by long periods of peace. Almost a decade passed between the signing of the Treaty of Bretigny and the outbreak of fighting at the end of the decade, and similarly almost the entire reign of Henry IV saw very little major fighting. Like Mycroft said, it's strange that most people divide the wars that Napoleon fought into separate wars (e.g. the Coalition Wars, the Peninsula War, the invasion of Russia) and similarly the three Punic Wars are considered separate wars, and yet this is different with the Hundred Years War. So, a war that spanned 116 years and the reigns of ten different monarchs is somehow the same war, but Napoleon fought different wars even though he was in all of them and they spanned only a decade. Right...

I suppose nationalism has a lot to do with it, as in the English want people to acknowledge that they won a few of the wars, and the French want everyone to think they won everything. It's a shame some people have this mentality. I think your tone is a little bit overly defensive. He made some good points, and you shouldn't dismiss all of them.
Yeah, I think I got carried a way. I admit that. I was just saying that ,, Hundred Years War '' is accepted term in historiography and isn't usually divided into several wars, though points about different separate periods and that it wasn't one continuous war are acknowledged. It isn't something that I invented. I have the same problems with Livonian war and Thirty Years war. Livonian was no way a one continuous conflict. It had bunch of separate conflicts. Thirty Years War didn't start as all-European one and had different periods.
 
Joined Sep 2016
1,606 Posts | 759+
Georgia
Last edited:
I strongly disagree with you. France is always a great power and have a comeback in the latest milliennium (from AD 1000 - 2000 I suppose) ? Obviously you didn’t have immense knowledge about the European military history. In fact....

Until the very late 15th century, France did not even accomplish the total centralization of monarchial rule exerting all over the roughly nowadays French realm by smashing all rival fedual lords. Until then, France was hardly called a “great power”. Until the reign of Philip Augustus, most part of the nowadays France was even once ruled by the Norman-English dynasty known as the Plantagenet, which once greatly overpowered the much fragile Capets. And at the earlier period, the 11th century, the Kingdom of France was weak being plagued by rampant fedualism. At the reign of the First Capetian King Hugh Capet. One noble accordingly scornfully answered to the monarch like this : "Who made you king ? ". Oh...what a powerful French kingdom.

Needless to mention the Hundred Years War and the Italian Wars for which a number of French defeat in many field battles and sieges were renowned. Even in the Thirty Years Wars, the French lost few battles. Even the Swedes won more battles than the French by just counting total figure.

The Hungarian Black Army was the strongest in the late 15th century until AD 1490.
The Spanish and the later Habsburg Empire pretty much dominated the 16th century, extending the military superiority to the early 17th century.
The French military merely reached the climax and obtained the dominance of Europe during the reign of the famous Sun King Louis XIV from around 1680s to 1714, and then declined again in mid-18th century during the reign of Louis V through later achieved som remarkable victories in the late-18th century Anglo-French War prior to AD 1789.

Hereafter France once again elevated to the golden age by the French Revolutionary Era and the mighty Napoleonic Era. After that, the French military domination was broken and began to enter into the long, long stagnant period with military leadership and theories steadily being eroded and surpassed by the dangerous neighbour Prussia-Germany.

Talking about the consistently naval supremacy in history, it was England-Britain rather than France. Talking about the consistently strongest cavalry force, it was Poles rather than French (pretty close for this one though...but the Poles still prevailed in length of dominating period). Talking about the military organization, tactics, arms, equipment and theories in modern era, it was Prussia-Germany achieving far more than other nations. Talking about the consistently strategic depth in territories and the largest amount of available military force since the early 18th century, it was Russia-Soviet far surpassing other European nations. Moreover, the consistently strongest air force from WW1 to WW2 was forged by Germany, followed by Britain and Russia-Soviet. The Poles even had their own incredible air force in exile after their own country had fallen to the wrath of Nazi Germany, though same could be said to the (Vichy) French for their navy.

So just dismiss such consistently French awesomeness in military strength and dominance and re-examine the facts through thorough analysis.
I disagree with you on several points.

Plantagenets were vassals of French crown. Most powerful vassals, but still vassals. Henry II didn't get much of his lands on continent by conquest. He inherited Normandy and Anjou. He got Aquitaine thanks to the marriage to Eleonore. So, French king was still overlord of those territories that Plantagenets controlled. They didn't become part of independent English crown. Many wars that followed were basically ,, King vs powerful vassal ''. French king could confiscate fiefs of English king. That is what Philip II did when John of England was summoned for his actions in Aquitaine and Tours , but did not present himself. Philip confiscated his fiefs.

Swedes won more battles ? In overall history ? Sorry, but that is simply not true. In Thirty Years War ? Well, don't forget that Sweden entered the war much earlier than France and that Sweden was financially backed by France as well. What Sweden would do without French money ? Don't forget about crushing defeat of Swedish army at Battle of Nordlingen in 1634.
The battle was one of the most crushing victories of the Thirty Years' War. With their forces substantially reduced and many German principalities refusing aid, the Swedes withdrew to Northern Germany where they remained inactive for several years. Consequently, the Protestant German princes made a separate peace with the Emperor in the Treaty of Prague.

The Habsburg triumph at Nördlingen followed by the Treaty of Prague could have been decisive in ending the war, enhancing Habsburg dominance in Europe. Spanish forces no longer engaged in warfare in Germany, posing a direct threat to France all along its frontier. France therefore intervened against the Imperial Habsburgs.

Prime Minister Richelieu had long been financing the enemies of the Habsburgs, but now they no longer were strong enough to be relied upon. War was declared against Spain on May 21, 1635, thus opening a second front on the Spanish Low Countries. In 1636 war was declared on Holy Roman Empire.

Habsburg Empire dominated so much in 16th century that they always struggled with Ottoman Empire. Their most successful conflict was 13 years war in Hungary 1593 - 1606 and even that didn't bring territorial gains.

Sorry, but England - Britain didn't have consistently naval supremacy. Spanish fleet was superior in the beginning of 16th century and even in the second half of 16th century English fleet wasn't superior. English couldn't defeat Spain in 1585 - 1604 war and had such disaster on their hands as English Armada in 1589. Where is martin76 when you need him ?

Fleet of James I was a joke. Situation started to get better under Charles I.

English navy didn't have supremacy over Dutch one in second half of 17th century. No way. Dutch destroyed and humiliated English in Second Anglo - Dutch war 1665 - 1667. Famous Raid on Medway by De Ruyter in 1667 was a complete humiliation of English and their fleet. In Third Anglo - Dutch war 1672 - 1674 English fleet couldn't beat the Dutch one. Charles II had to abandon the war and situation returned to 1667 Treaty of Breda. Which you know, was favorable for the Dutch.

In Modern age naval supremacy belongs to USA.

Against what great European force Polish cavalry fought that you rate them so highly and above everyone else ? Polish Hussars never fought against Western European cavalry in 16th and 17th century. All of their battles are either against Russians, Swedish or Ottomans. They never faced something like French Gendarmes, for example.

Russia having largest amount of available military force since the early 18th century ? Sorry, but this is wrong. France was superior to Russia in terms of population in the beginning of 18th century with 20 million people. In theory Louis XIV could field 400 000 troops. During Nine Year War ( 1688 -1697 ) French fielded more than 300 000 soldiers. Russia wasn't superior to France in terms of population and ability to field larger force in the beginning of 18th century. Not to mention, that French army had superior organization to Russians and could provide + supply those troops.

Let's not forget, that Prussians were defeated quite a few times during Seven Years War. Frederick himself was defeated 3 times ( at Kolin in 1757, at Hochkirch in 1758 and at Kunersdorf in 1759). He also couldn't beat Russian force in Battle of Zorndorf in 1758, despite inflicting heavy casualties on them. Frederick was actually in panic after disaster at Kunersdorf. By the way, Russians captured Berlin for 3 days in 1760. Prussia got really lucky that Elizabeth died and Peter III ascended to the throne, who was fan of Frederick. He got rid of powerful enemy thanks to her death, when his country was in critical situation and condition.

Prussia also got left behind by French army in 1806. Leaving in the past and than they faced harsh reality.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tokugawa Ieyasu
Joined Sep 2013
547 Posts | 67+
France
And France beat Prussia in 1795 and 1806, and beat Germany in two World Wars. I'd say that's the slightly more impressive record.

+ I never understood why it is such a shame to lose a war on 1 vs 1 against Germany at the peak of her military power...
So many times I read this: such a shame France loose against Germany in 1870 / 1940... uh... what ? Because Germany at this time was some kind of third world powerless country ???
 

Trending History Discussions

Top