Israel: an extension of European culture?

1. I think yes
2. I think more secular, but with a religious backbone.

RoryOMore said:

1. I think yes
2. I think more secular, but with a religious backbone.

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I agree fully with this. Most of the founders of Israel were Holocaust survivors, who had lived in Europe prior to WW2/the Holocaust. And although the Jewish religion plays an important role in their country, it isn't a theocracy in any way.

Menshevik said:

I'd like to start off by saying I have a great affinity for Israel and the Israeli people. I lived in Egypt for a year, and had the opportunity to visit Israel a few times. Egypt was a complete culture shock for me. Crossing over into Israel was like visiting a home away from home. What I saw and experienced in Israel has led me to believe that they are really an extension of Western society and culture, if not also European. I base this opinion on the similarities between Israelis and Americans. Music, dance, clothing, alcohol consumption, and ... are treated very much the same in Israel as they are here. You could kiss in public, and make other displays of affection without anyone batting an eye. ..... can wear the most scanty and provocative ......s without having some religious police harass them for it. Alcohol is abundant. Rap, techno, and house music are all things to get your freak on and dance to! People also seemed free to speak their minds, no worry of being locked up for criticizing the government.

So, here are a few direct questions.

1. Is Israel a Western/European style country?
2. Are they a theocracy? Or a more secular and democratic type government?

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There are places in other Middle/Near Eastern countries like this as well. Although, I think it's in more isolated pockets rather than across the board. I too thought of it as being "westernized." However, I learned that people generally disliked the comparison and/or hearing that term in relation to their culture, regardless of the American/Western material & cultural elements liberally spread around. I was somewhat surprised to see things like Ford and Chevy dealerships. And now, Cairo has western-style shopping malls and American style housing developments (subdivisions) with cookie cutter houses that look identical to some of the ones here in Florida. Although, I haven't been to Israel so I'm not sure what they think of the term or the idea of being "westernized." As for the type of government, I agree with Rory. Technically, I believe it is secular...but there is a strong influence from the religion.

Menshevik said:

I'd like to start off by saying I have a great affinity for Israel and the Israeli people. I lived in Egypt for a year, and had the opportunity to visit Israel a few times. Egypt was a complete culture shock for me. Crossing over into Israel was like visiting a home away from home. What I saw and experienced in Israel has led me to believe that they are really an extension of Western society and culture, if not also European. I base this opinion on the following similarities between Israelis and Americans, that I observed. Music, dance, clothing, alcohol consumption, and ... are treated very much the same in Israel as they are here. You could kiss in public, and make other displays of affection without anyone batting an eye. ..... can wear the most scanty and provocative ......s without having some religious police harass them for it. Alcohol is abundant. Rap, techno, and house music are all things to get your freak on and dance to! People also seemed free to speak their minds, no worry of being locked up for criticizing the government.

So, here are a few direct questions.

1. Is Israel a Western/European style country?
2. Are they a theocracy? Or a more secular and democratic type government?

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"Extension"?

Israel IS a Western imperial colony in the land of Palestinians. So offcourse, it'd be European/Western. Sorry, I don't worship Israel so will say things as they are...

Btw, how was Egypt culture shock for you? Can you share? I'd be interested to learn!

Israel was founded and built by European colonists, so it's obviously a part of the West in a similar way as Argentina or Australia are, in spite of the later influx of Oriental Jews.

Menshevik said:

So, here are a few direct questions.

1. Is Israel a Western/European style country?
2. Are they a theocracy? Or a more secular and democratic type government?

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1. Yes.
2. No.

But as for 1 it's not a given that Israel won't develop into its own orbit in some ways, while things over in Europe head another way, opening more of a gap between them in time.

And as for nr 2, there are aspects of the conflict with the Palestinians that are potentially very harmfull in the long run to Israel as a democracy, and there are aspects of Israeli politics and demographics both that could draw it in some kind of theocracy direction eventually.

Rather depends on what the Israelis turn out to want more from a list of not very good options.

Menshevik said:

Egypt, initially, was like an alien landscape. The people, the language, the customs, the attitudes, all very foreign to me. The poverty was appalling, no one in America has it that bad. The very strict adherence to Islam.

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Well, how was that a 'culture shock' for you? I mean, didn't you know all of this already?

Anything specific you wanna know?

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You said customs were very different...Can you be more precise? Like what kind of customs you experienced?

Westernish. But not quite Western, still look and act a bit Arab like.

Menshevik said:

I'd like to start off by saying I have a great affinity for Israel and the Israeli people. I lived in Egypt for a year, and had the opportunity to visit Israel a few times. Egypt was a complete culture shock for me. Crossing over into Israel was like visiting a home away from home. What I saw and experienced in Israel has led me to believe that they are really an extension of Western society and culture, if not also European. I base this opinion on the following similarities between Israelis and Americans, that I observed. Music, dance, clothing, alcohol consumption, and ... are treated very much the same in Israel as they are here. You could kiss in public, and make other displays of affection without anyone batting an eye. ..... can wear the most scanty and provocative ......s without having some religious police harass them for it. Alcohol is abundant. Rap, techno, and house music are all things to get your freak on and dance to! People also seemed free to speak their minds, no worry of being locked up for criticizing the government.

So, here are a few direct questions.

1. Is Israel a Western/European style country?
2. Are they a theocracy? Or a more secular and democratic type government?

Click to expand...

Yes, the Jews in exile adopted European traits and brought them back when they returned to the promised land. It is a democracy but with theocratic overtones

Naturally Israel was bulit by (mostly) European settlers, but I have still seen many difference especially in the mentality and way of thinking.
The experience of the Army, which is mandatory for Israelis (also women) greatly influences young people. It's one of the first question not only young Israelis ask each other: Where did you serve in the army?
Israelis have a constant feeling of threat and the thought that they are surrounded by enemies. If you want to go in to a mall you have to have your bag checked and walk through a metal detector. Comparing this with the way people grow up and live in Europe it'S pretty safe to say that people grow up very differently here in Europe, or at least Germany. People here don't really feel any (external) threats.

Menshevik said:

Knowing or expecting something before hand, and then actually experiencing it, are two totally different things. No?

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Uhhh, don't know about that. Uptil now, I haven't felt any 'culture shock'...Probably Saudi Arabia was kinda culture shock...but not really...Most of the times, I pretty much have a good idea about the country I travel to.

I want to visit Indonesia...probably there I'll experience my first culture shock

Egyptians are very hands on type people. They do not share the same idea of personal space that Western people do. They will grab you, literally, and try and get you to come into their shops. They haggle, for everything. Arguing and yelling seem to be the preferable style of communicating. The Bedouin women I saw were completely covered, only their eyes could be seen. The praying five times a day, was interesting to observe. Men will hold hands with each other.

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haha, a lively culture!!!! Very similar to Pakistani markets...Shop keepers try everything to get you buy in their shops..I can understand. Men holding hands, and being more touchy is normal in Eastern cultures all over. We were discussing that in some other thread few days ago...

What about the food? what did you think of their street-food culture?

In my visits of (parts of) Islamic World, couple of things I've noticed are these:

1) Amazing...literally unbelievable...hospitality.

2) Very vibrant/lively cultures...alot of hussle and bussle, dynamic street life, people sitting in the shops, small restaurants around the street, eating, watching sports together, talking about different things etc. A lot more happening than the usual cultural boredom we are faced with here in the West...

3) ..... are VERY hard to approach. Well, i admit that I'm not the best looking thing out there, but still, Muslim ..... have a deep sense of 'honor' ... and hooking up, getting intimate etc goes against their traditional 'honor'... (Someone told me that if a .... has ... outside of marriage, she loses her honor and even her family's "honor"...and I thought to myself "Uhhh, "honor" killings...makes much more sense now"..)........ have very decent clothes on....No skin...Even wearing a skirt is considered 'showing legs'...Only saw few classy ...... wearing skirts in Jordan...

4) Absolutely remarkable food. Millions of different tastes, spices, local variants, local drinks etc...

5) Societies aren't very "disciplined" and urban cleanliness isn't as great as in the West (though richer Islamic Countries are right up there..but middle-income countries like Pakistan...Well, lets just say they still have work to do).

Your description of Egyptians is strikingly similar to what I've found Pakistanis to be. Though Pakistanis won't "yell", but they'll definitely argue alot about prices etc from shop keepers...

Larrey said:

1. Yes.
2. No.

But as for 1 it's not a given that Israel won't develop into its own orbit in some ways, while things over in Europe head another way, opening more of a gap between them in time.

And as for nr 2, there are aspects of the conflict with the Palestinians that are potentially very harmfull in the long run to Israel as a democracy, and there are aspects of Israeli politics and demographics both that could draw it in some kind of theocracy direction eventually.

Rather depends on what the Israelis turn out to want more from a list of not very good options.

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I agree with this. Currently, Israel is very much a Western or even European country, but there are clear signs that Israel might take a development which will separate it from Europe. For example, Europe is getting more and more pacifist, while many Israelis consider their state threatened by other powers and thus appreciate their own military power. It is also possible that, while Europe is becoming more and more secular, Israel is heading in a different direction: The branch of Judaism in Israel with the highest growth rate is that of Haredi Judaism, thus the most orthodox form of Judaism.

Isn't Europe becoming more warlike.

Every British PM has sent Brirish troops into battle at some point. France has fought in Mali and Afghanistan and wanted to attack Syria. Danes have fought in Afganistan so have the Dutch, Ukrainians, Poles and Germans. The German Luftwaffe was bombing the Serbs and has been active since then. The only European nations that seem to be clinging to pacifism are the Swedes, Swiss and Austrians.

Israel was the product of the more secular-Leftist wing of Ashkenazi culture that decided that Herzl was right. It began, at any rate, from socialist Kibbutzim and remained decidedly secular and even anathema to traditional Rabbis until after 1967, when they retroactively decided yesterday's abomination was today's divine mandate and became more of a harm than an aid to Israel.

Edwulf said:

Isn't Europe becoming more warlike.

Every British PM has sent Brirish troops into battle at some point. France has fought in Mali and Afghanistan and wanted to attack Syria. Danes have fought in Afganistan so have the Dutch, Ukrainians, Poles and Germans. The German Luftwaffe was bombing the Serbs and has been active since then. The only European nations that seem to be clinging to pacifism are the Swedes, Swiss and Austrians.

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We should distinguish between the decisions of governments and the attitude of the population. All in all, I would say that Europeans are quite pacifist.

For example, the deployment of German troops to Afghanistan was only done out of solidarity with the United States in the wake of 9/11. The general population in Germany is clearly very pacifist and opposed to the mission in Afghanistan. In other European countries, the governments might be more willing to use military power, but I have the impression that the attitude of the respective populations is also rather pacifist.

All this is no comparison to Israel, where it is natural that military power is used on a regular basis, and where the military in general is held in high esteem. There are also a lot more interactions between the realm of politics and the military, with many politicians having a proud military career. In Europe, it is completely unusual for politicians to have significant military experience.

Space Shark said:

I agree fully with this. Most of the founders of Israel were Holocaust survivors, who had lived in Europe prior to WW2/the Holocaust. And although the Jewish religion plays an important role in their country, it isn't a theocracy in any way.

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Actually the founders of Israel were the product of the British Empire and the consolidation of two illegal/terrorist organizations, the Haganah and the Irgun. Israel can twist history all it likes, but its origins are 1917, not 1945. It was the product of a deliberate, Machiavellian, but effective set of plans on the part of David ben Gurion and company to transform a minority of the overall population into a relative military juggernaut. So long as Hajj Amin Al-Husseini led the Palestinians, and he was put into power by the British, an Israel of some sort is guaranteed WWII or no WWII.