King Arthur and similar legends

paratom · Jun 29, 2016

I watched recently the series about King Arthur. It is of course well known Legend, placing him in 5th century or similar. Now what paid my attention is his death. English newer version tells about Avalon Island. Welsh version tells, that he sleeps with Guinevere and his knights in the underground cave in Welsh. They were even searching him in the caves in series.

There are similar legends.

Slovenia; King Mathias and his wife Alenka (Madeleine) were fighting with his knights terrible battles against invaders. When invaders became too strong, they found the shelter in the underground cave under the mountain, where they sleep. One day they will wake up and defeat the invaders... The legend is well spread in Slovenia, they tried to connect it with Hungarian 15th century king Matias Korvin. However the similarity are just the names.

Czechia; An ancient legend says that a large army of Czech knights led by St. Wenceslashttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Wenceslas sleeps inside the mountain Blanik. The knights awaken to help the Motherland when it is in great danger. According to the legend, when this happens, Blaník's trees will dry out but an old, dead oakhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak tree under the mountain will turn green and a small spring by the mountain will become a river.

It seems that this legends have perhaps the same origin? In forgotten past long ago?

Are there any other similar legends, anyone knows perhaps?

Naomasa298 · Jun 29, 2016

Here you go:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_in_the_mountain

paratom · Jun 29, 2016

Yes, I see it is quite a lot of this.

Now the question is, if an old legend was adapted every time with the new names perhaps? I believe even the Church itself would forbid spreading of such legends. That the hero did not die, but sleeps. The English version later puts Arthur in the grave.

Peter Graham · Jun 29, 2016

paratom said:
Yes, I see it is quite a lot of this.

Now the question is, if an old legend was adapted every time with the new names perhaps? I believe even the Church itself would forbid spreading of such legends. That the hero did not die, but sleeps. The English version later puts Arthur in the grave.

Yes - an old motif has clearly been reused, as happens all the time.* We know very little of the early medieval Church, so we cannot say that they would or would not have tried to prevent the spread of a legend or how successful they would have been even if they had tried. And given that if we beat Drake's Drum, he will come back to save us, I think we can be reasonably sure that this motif has had a long life.

Regards,

Peter

* See also the similarity between the various screaming skull stories. It still happens - back in the early 80s, when microwave ovens were the New Thing, everyone in Britain seemed to know someone who had been at a party when a cat had been put in one. In the 90s, when homelessness was briefly a big issue (pun intended), lots of people in Britain seemed to know of a local tramp who, after a day's successful begging, would get into his BMW and drive home.

paratom · Jun 29, 2016

If I look at Wikipedia and the names there, the motif appears with personalities from around 500 to 1000. Some are artificially created later, like Suvorov, Napolen, Vlad Tepes sleeps all the time anyway. At least during daytime. The Greek Encelaudus and Typhoon I would not put it this group. Are more with greek mythology.

Would be interesting to know how many are in really of "folks" origin and how many are added for propaganda purposes. Can the origin of the Legend be connected somehow than with the fall of Roman Empire and destruction of previous order? With Wolochen (Welsh, Vlahi, Lahi)?

Or perhaps much older, with Celtic Invasion once? It seem the core of the legend is spread around the whole Europe.

starkodder · Jun 29, 2016

We have another version from the hill Ålleberg in Västergötland. They are called the knights of Ålleberg and are sleeping inside the mountain until it is time to save the country in need. There are 120 legends/tales connected to this mountain altogheter according to a source.

johnincornwall · Jun 30, 2016

We did have one lunatic post a thread here some time back, all about Arthur and how he was going to reveal a big secret in his book. He was clearly insane but the arguments on the thread were quite interesting before he was banned.

You might be able to find it if you search.

paratom · Jun 30, 2016

We have another version from the hill Ålleberg in Västergötland. They are called the knights of Ålleberg and are sleeping inside the mountain until it is time to save the country in need. There are 120 legends/tales connected to this mountain altogheter according to a source.

This is excellent, the story is just the same as the other ones 1500 km more to south. And Västergötland can not be connected with Walachen.

paratom · Jun 30, 2016

Yes - an old motif has clearly been reused, as happens all the time.* We know very little of the early medieval Church, so we cannot say that they would or would not have tried to prevent the spread of a legend or how successful they would have been even if they had tried. And given that if we beat Drake's Drum, he will come back to save us, I think we can be reasonably sure that this motif has had a long life.

I assume there would behttp://sl.pons.com/prevod/angleščina-slovenščina/Resurrection resurrection for all of us, not just for the knights. That's why I think such stories would not be supported by church. On the other hand you have recent story, when the famous French air ace Georges Guynemer went missing in action in 1917, apparently in French schools the story was told, that he had flown so high, he could not have returned back to earth. And is still flying.

Calebxy · Jun 30, 2016

What's interesting about this story in Arthur's case is that it seems like it may well actually be based on a genuine event. In the Life of St Illtyd (and the earlier Wonders of Britain, by Nennius) there is an account of a body being brought, secretly, to Illtyd while he's living in a cave. The body, whose identity is never revealed in either account, is then buried in the cave. Illtyd is traditionally viewed to have died c. 580, while Arthur, by my calculations, probably died around 579. It's therefore very significant to note that this event takes place almost at the end of Illtyd's Life. This would tie in with it being around the time of Arthur's death.

Additionally, the men transporting the body and handing it over to Illtyd are described as arriving by boat, which ties in with the tale that Arthur was taken away in a boat after being mortally wounded at Camlann. There's another connection in the fact that the account says that a church was later built over the body (evidently, the body was moved from the cave), while the Romance tales claim that Arthur was buried in a newly built chapel.

If the account really is a description of Arthur's body being secretly buried in a cave, this would explain very logically just why it is that the 'sleeping in a cave' motif came to be applied to him.

starkodder · Jun 30, 2016

Didn't Tacitus or Jordanes (or some other) write about sleeping persons in Roman clothing, somewhere in a cave in the far northwest in Europe?

Kavyk · Jun 30, 2016

I've always known about King Arthur but I've never gone in depth to study the legends. Anyone have some good book recommendations?

King Arthur · Jun 30, 2016

Kavyk said:
I've always known about King Arthur but I've never gone in depth to study the legends. Anyone have some good book recommendations?

For the legends?

I'm not a fan. Morte d'Arthur was written by a murderer and paedophile/rapist.

Devdas · Jun 30, 2016

Was King Arthur a Celtic king.

King Arthur · Jun 30, 2016

Devdas said:
Was King Arthur a Celtic king.

Romano-British.

Calebxy · Jun 30, 2016

King Arthur said:
Romano-British.

In what way do you mean that? Culturally or ethnically? And why do you say that?

Calebxy · Jun 30, 2016

Kavyk said:
I've always known about King Arthur but I've never gone in depth to study the legends. Anyone have some good book recommendations?

The Holy Kingdom is a pretty good one. Though there are obvious flaws in some of the theories (like the fact that Maximus's legendary son Owain, who was active until the 430s, clearly can't be the usurper Eugenius who died in 394), the overall scenario they've constructed is very solid. Artorius Rex Discovered is also excellent and is more detailed in many areas (it's where I found the theory about the identity of the person who was secretly buried in the Life of St Illtyd being Arthur and effecting the stories of him sleeping in a cave), but is less well written. It's also much harder to get than The Holy Kingdom.

King Arthur · Jun 30, 2016

Calebxy said:
In what way do you mean that? Culturally or ethnically? And why do you say that?

Culturally very simply since he lived in sub-roman britain. There's also reason to believe he was part-Roman if you follow his traditional genealpgy.

Peter Graham · Jul 1, 2016

Devdas said:
Was King Arthur a Celtic king.

Probably not. He is more likely to be some sort of legendary figure who became historicised in the early medieval period. There is a slew of literature on Arthur, some of it scholarly and measured, most of it utter nonsense based on entirely (or mainly) uncritical readings of much later literary material.

At present, I'd recommend Caitlin Green's Concepts of Arthur as a good introduction to the material. The book is very affordable and very accessible to a non-specialist audience. Green is a proper and respected scholar and she sets out the Arthurian literature and the various arguments in detail. She doesn't think Arthur was real.

The best advocate of the 'Arthur was real' camp is probably Christoper Gidlow, who is also a respected scholar. Gidlow is, however, in the minority in academic circles. For mos scholars, Arthur is at best a distraction and, at worst, an irritant.

paratom · Jul 1, 2016

Sleeping Warriors

Wales

Various legends of Sleeping Warriors appear in Welsh folklore, in which the dragon is displaced by a shadowy army of slumbering heroes, lying about in a circle, with their swords and shields by their sides, guarding great heaps of gold and silver. Now they are Owen Lawgoch and his men, who lie in their enchanted sleep in a cavern on the northern side of Mynydd Mawr, in Carmarthenshire; again they are Arthur and his warriors, asleep in a secret ogof under Craig-y-Ddinas, waiting for a day when the Briton and the Saxon shall go to war, when the noise of the struggle will awaken them, and they will reconquer the island, reduce London to dust, and re-establish their king at Caerleon, in Monmouthshire.

It is really a lot of this. The story line is more or less the same, sleeping king and the army in the cave. The legend must have the same origin somewhere in misty past, because it is spread around whole Europe... To this story, some historical personalities were stick. After year 1000 it seems we can track them (Barbarossa), before that we can only guess and are still searching them. Like King Arthur, who was recorded very early. But some can not be traced and are perhaps closer to original story/event. In today's Slovenia for example the story was well spread in all parts, but first recorded around 1800.

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