King 'Solomun' was Pharoah 'Siamun'

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There's strong evidence that there was no temple dedicated to Amun-Ra in Jerusalem.
1) Amun's imagery was the most popular during the LBA and remained, though to a lesser extent, popular till Iron II in South-West Levant.
On this, the temple was clearly decked out with an Egyptian shrine and bronze snake so it had Egyptian imagery, it had a 'Djeser djeseru/holy of holies, and very possibly had Djed pillars/Osiris poles. But it was destroyed, so all of that would have gone, if any was left after Hezekiah apparently stripped it of gold to pay off the Assyrians. As a result the later memories of the temple would not have had Amun Ra imagery to recognise.

Happy to look at other points if you have more.
 
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I am saying Solomon didn't exist.
Okay my mistake.

The story is based on Siamun - building temples, being very rich, marrying the Pharaoh's daughter.
That is probably just a coincidence. What are the chances that the Hebrews even knew or remembered Siamun when they wrote about Solomon in the 600s or 500s BC.

There is no evidence of a king Solomon. As a couple of others have pointed out, the name Solomon was in use as Salmaneser in Assyria both before and after the dates ascribed to Solomon's reign (his Hebrew name was 'Jedediah') and so it seems possible to have been an overlay of the story onto a local king, with an apocryphal story as to why he took a different name.
I mean it could be. But why can't it just be that they made up a character? That is a thing I never got. Why are there so many theories that a mythical character was based on a real person? Maybe they just made it up. In 5,000 years someone is going to claim that Spiderman was based on a real person or something. I think they made up a character, but incorporated elements of Ashurbanipal and potentially Cyrus's character into this fictional Solomon figure. Not that many of the events of the story were based on anything.
 
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There's strong evidence that there was no temple dedicated to Amun-Ra in Jerusalem.
1) Amun's imagery was the most popular during the LBA and remained, though to a lesser extent, popular till Iron II in South-West Levant.
I'm not sure what this is a reference to. But if you mean the Hebrew religion, there were really two centers of the Jews at two different times. The north which was called Israel, and the south called Judah which centered on Jerusalem.

At least in the Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age, roughly 1300 BC to 1100 BC, the main city in the region at Megiddo was a center for the Levantine god EL. Worship of YHWH seems to come from the north as well. Probably in the 1000s BC the YHWH religion was gradually formed so that it was in full swing by about 900 BC to 700 BC. Although there were occasional rivalries between the YHWH religion and the EL religion, probably coming to a head by the 700s BC where the EL religion, was supported by Hazael from Damascus, still had influence but then got destroyed abruptly in an official capacity in Israel. So I would say that the YHWH religion is largely a copy, reformation of sorts, and rivalry with the EL cult.

There's an alternative. The Semitic sequence slmn and variants of it are attested in ANA and ASA inscriptions and can be found in epigraphic databases such as DASI and OCIANA. Then we're talking about proto-Arabic inscriptions that appear after 700 BC in an area that had a kind of nomad empire, Lihyan. Just like slmn the root dwd, is only attested in proto-Arabic.
I mean the name Solomon could have been used by lots of kings. There may have been a king called Solomon in Judah, who knows. But there certainly was no ruler called Solomon who was an charge of a Judah or Israelite Empire.
 
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Now if there were places which ought to have had Egyptian influence they would have been Jaffa, Acre, Megiddo, and Beth Shan which had Egyptian garrisons and had close relationships with the Egyptians by the 19th Dynasty. Surprisingly though Megiddo actually has a distinct lack of Egyptian influence, and was the center of the EL cult in the Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age.
 
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Finkelstein suggests David fought a big guy in latter times (than a Bible timeline ) in Greek amour . And he makes the point there easily could have been a "Habiru " ( outlaws outside of the state infiltrating in to the east ) that knocked out a large armored mercenary with a sling ( look up their power , if you are not familiar with it ) and a hero story passed down about it .
I suppose that is possible. It could have been a completely different story or tradition that got worked into the David mythos.

The archaeology suggests there was not much there either .
Yeah Judah was pretty empty. Which stands to reason as much of it is in the more arid lowlands. Where the land was dry and there was not as much access to water. Cities in Judah like Jerusalem were built on a sort of "acropolis" where they had access to internal wells that were cut into the rock. Jerusalem existed since the Bronze Age, or at least some polity nearby in that general locality. The actual place where Iron Age Jerusalem was located, maybe even Bronze Age Jerusalem, was on the temple mount. Since that is a perfect acropolis, and other ancient cities in the region were dug up in similar locations. But that being the case it does not seem that Jerusalem was a large city at the time at all. Samaria was larger. Hardly the great imperial city of David and Solomon.

Perhaps the north was 'where it was at ' and Judah , much less so. And considering they were not probably united as the Bible claims , they might have been no more than rival neighboring states that both had a variety of beliefs and Gods , with some elements of 'Judaism' ( as it came to be later ) in both as well.
That is basically an accurate claim. Judah was a very underdeveloped state in the lowlands and arid country. It had fewer cities and not very many institutions that could enable a strong kingdom. Judaism was prevalent in both Judah and Israel. But it seems that where as Judah's conversion was more complete, in Israel there were still some pagans and EL worshippers. As alluded to in the Bible with figures like Jezebel and so on. That could just be propaganda though, Judah claiming that their northern rival isn't religious enough. That being said some populations in Israel were still pagan. If you look up the Samarians you will find that there still exist Levantine pagans in Israel.

If the more northern area suffered more from incursions and devastation, it might have 'knocked it down' to be more equal to Judah . Then also perhaps a lot of people fled Israel into Judah , taking the northern myths and stories with them ?

By Josiah's time maybe he wanted to 're-claim' the north as part of a once single kingdom ?
Israel was victim to invasions by Hazael of Damascus, and by the Assyrians multiple times. Finally Sennacherib conquered the kingdom after a century of conflict. Anyway under Ashurbanipal the Israelite state had been annexed by Assyria, and Judah became a vassal state of Assyria. So there was no king of Israel or anyone who could claim the kingdom anymore. Judah realized that Assyria was declining and started plotting to invade and annex northern Canaan from the Assyrians, with help from immigrants that came from Israel, and perhaps people on the inside in Samaria.

I should look into Omri more .
Omri is the actual David in a way. Most of the deeds of David were actually done by Omri. He conquered the Trans-Jordanian kingdoms and took over the area around the Golan Heights. Technically he also subjugated Judah and made them subservient to his kingdom. He is credited as the founder of the most important and final dynasty of Israel and moved the capital to Samaria.
 
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I suppose that is possible. It could have been a completely different story or tradition that got worked into the David mythos.


Yeah Judah was pretty empty. Which stands to reason as much of it is in the more arid lowlands. Where the land was dry and there was not as much access to water. Cities in Judah like Jerusalem were built on a sort of "acropolis" where they had access to internal wells that were cut into the rock. Jerusalem existed since the Bronze Age, or at least some polity nearby in that general locality. The actual place where Iron Age Jerusalem was located, maybe even Bronze Age Jerusalem, was on the temple mount. Since that is a perfect acropolis, and other ancient cities in the region were dug up in similar locations. But that being the case it does not seem that Jerusalem was a large city at the time at all. Samaria was larger. Hardly the great imperial city of David and Solomon.


That is basically an accurate claim. Judah was a very underdeveloped state in the lowlands and arid country. It had fewer cities and not very many institutions that could enable a strong kingdom. Judaism was prevalent in both Judah and Israel. But it seems that where as Judah's conversion was more complete, in Israel there were still some pagans and EL worshippers. As alluded to in the Bible with figures like Jezebel and so on. That could just be propaganda though, Judah claiming that their northern rival isn't religious enough. That being said some populations in Israel were still pagan. If you look up the Samarians you will find that there still exist Levantine pagans in Israel.


Israel was victim to invasions by Hazael of Damascus, and by the Assyrians multiple times. Finally Sennacherib conquered the kingdom after a century of conflict. Anyway under Ashurbanipal the Israelite state had been annexed by Assyria, and Judah became a vassal state of Assyria. So there was no king of Israel or anyone who could claim the kingdom anymore. Judah realized that Assyria was declining and started plotting to invade and annex northern Canaan from the Assyrians, with help from immigrants that came from Israel, and perhaps people on the inside in Samaria.


Omri is the actual David in a way. Most of the deeds of David were actually done by Omri. He conquered the Trans-Jordanian kingdoms and took over the area around the Golan Heights. Technically he also subjugated Judah and made them subservient to his kingdom. He is credited as the founder of the most important and final dynasty of Israel and moved the capital to Samaria.
Regarding king Omri we can say that he's one of the few personages from that far era who can enjoy not biblical archaeological sources.
About him the so called "Mesha Stele" is an exceptional document since it had written by a Canaanite scribe who didn't live and serve in a Jewish context.

Mesha was the son of the king of Moab. When they write the stele he was the ruler.

On Wiki you can find a translation [it had written in a kind of Phoenician alphabet and the language is totally unknown for me].

Mesha Stele - Wikipedia
 
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I suppose that is possible. It could have been a completely different story or tradition that got worked into the David mythos.

Omri is the actual David in a way. Most of the deeds of David were actually done by Omri. He conquered the Trans-Jordanian kingdoms and took over the area around the Golan Heights. Technically he also subjugated Judah and made them subservient to his kingdom. He is credited as the founder of the most important and final dynasty of Israel and moved the capital to Samaria.
FYI Goliath is killed by an Elhanon in the Bible as in a story that was later attributed to David, as indicated by the garbled translation of 'Bethlemite' into 'brother of Lahmi' in the David version of the story (there are no mistranslated parts in the Book of Samuel version).
 
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I'm not sure what this is a reference to. But if you mean the Hebrew religion, there were really two centers of the Jews at two different times. The north which was called Israel, and the south called Judah which centered on Jerusalem.

At least in the Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age, roughly 1300 BC to 1100 BC, the main city in the region at Megiddo was a center for the Levantine god EL. Worship of YHWH seems to come from the north as well. Probably in the 1000s BC the YHWH religion was gradually formed so that it was in full swing by about 900 BC to 700 BC. Although there were occasional rivalries between the YHWH religion and the EL religion, probably coming to a head by the 700s BC where the EL religion, was supported by Hazael from Damascus, still had influence but then got destroyed abruptly in an official capacity in Israel. So I would say that the YHWH religion is largely a copy, reformation of sorts, and rivalry with the EL cult.


I mean the name Solomon could have been used by lots of kings. There may have been a king called Solomon in Judah, who knows. But there certainly was no ruler called Solomon who was an charge of a Judah or Israelite Empire.
My point is that most of the names that you expect to find in the linguistical or epigraphical records of Judea or the Southern Levant are basically all missing. The key question is how these names feature in Biblical stories while not being attested. A geographical transfer of events is then the most simple explanation.
 
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FYI Goliath is killed by an Elhanon in the Bible as in a story that was later attributed to David, as indicated by the garbled translation of 'Bethlemite' into 'brother of Lahmi' in the David version of the story (there are no mistranslated parts in the Book of Samuel version).

In Samuel it says that Elhanan slew Goliath. Then in Chronicles it says that Elhanan slew Goliath's brother.
The Bible does this a lot. Even in the Psalms it will claim that a psalm was written by Moses, or King David, but in another part it says a completely different name that is otherwise not mentioned in the Bible. So the tradition is that a totally unrelated guy wrote it or did it, then the Bible retroactively gives credit to Biblical figures. The reason why it is in the same Bible is because those books are written separately by different people and during different times. Then someone compiled them into a single book later on. So for example Samuel is a much later tradition, in which Samuel and David were inserted into an already existing story about Saul. Where as Chronicles and Kings was written later and is based on the history of Israel and Judah, but with a lot of traditions inserted, and Judah propaganda, including religious interpretations.
 
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Regarding king Omri we can say that he's one of the few personages from that far era who can enjoy not biblical archaeological sources.
About him the so called "Mesha Stele" is an exceptional document since it had written by a Canaanite scribe who didn't live and serve in a Jewish context.

Mesha was the son of the king of Moab. When they write the stele he was the ruler.

On Wiki you can find a translation [it had written in a kind of Phoenician alphabet and the language is totally unknown for me].

Mesha Stele - Wikipedia

When Mesha rebelled against the Israelites he plainly gives credit to Omri for conquering the Trans-Jordanian kingdoms. But the Bible wants us to think that this expansion was carried out under David. Which is blatantly false.
 
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My point is that most of the names that you expect to find in the linguistical or epigraphical records of Judea or the Southern Levant are basically all missing. The key question is how these names feature in Biblical stories while not being attested. A geographical transfer of events is then the most simple explanation.

So you're saying that there is a lack of Egyptian influence in the region? Or that the placenames in the Bible are not attested to during the Bronze Age?
 
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So you're saying that there is a lack of Egyptian influence in the region? Or that the placenames in the Bible are not attested to during the Bronze Age?
No, that significant characters, especially from the older part of the OT, are missing like Salomon, David, Abraham, Hagar etc. but appear east or south of the Jordan river.
 
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As I mentioned earlier, for instance in ANA scripts. The name Hagar is widely attested in Safaitic script, used in the basalt desert from southern Syria and Jordan. But that's not the issue: the question is why so many Biblical names, and especially of those in key roles, are not attested in Canaan during Iron II and III.
 
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When Mesha rebelled against the Israelites he plainly gives credit to Omri for conquering the Trans-Jordanian kingdoms. But the Bible wants us to think that this expansion was carried out under David. Which is blatantly false.
The Tanakh was also a mean of propaganda ... King David, the ultimate hero had to have done almost all!
The Tanakh had written in the Hellenic period. They were substantially in the period of the Maccabees ...
 
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The Tanakh was also a mean of propaganda ... King David, the ultimate hero had to have done almost all!
The Tanakh had written in the Hellenic period. They were substantially in the period of the Maccabees ...

It was part of a narrative to resurrect the idea of an Israelite kingdom centered around the religious site of Jerusalem. The Bible draws influences from Greek narratives. Characters like Moses, Joshua, the Judges, David, and Solomon take on influences from Greek narrative tropes, like the "Seven Sages" and so on.
 
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I found a curious reference regarding Josiah and his confrontation with Neco .

In one way it seems to reverse the whole situation ; Pharaoh is the one doing God's work and God speaks out of Pharoh's mouth . Josiah goes against Pharaoh and 'the word of God from Pharaoh's mouth and so, gets killed .

One might expect that from an Egyptian source ... but the Bible ? ( There might be something going on here I don't understand ? )

מַה-לִּי וָלָךְ מֶלֶךְ יְהוּדָה, לֹא-עָלֶיךָ אַתָּה הַיּוֹם כִּי אֶל-בֵּית מִלְחַמְתִּי, וֵאלֹהִים, אָמַר לְבַהֲלֵנִי: חֲדַל-לְךָ מֵאֱלֹהִים אֲשֶׁר-עִמִּי, וְאַל-יַשְׁחִיתֶךָ.21 But he sent ambassadors to him, saying: 'What have I to do with thee, thou king of Judah? I come not against thee this day, but against the house wherewith I have war; and God hath given command to speed me; forbear thee from meddling with God, who is with me, that He destroy thee not.'
כב וְלֹא-הֵסֵב יֹאשִׁיָּהוּ פָנָיו מִמֶּנּוּ, כִּי לְהִלָּחֵם-בּוֹ הִתְחַפֵּשׂ, וְלֹא שָׁמַע אֶל-דִּבְרֵי נְכוֹ, מִפִּי אֱלֹהִים; וַיָּבֹא, לְהִלָּחֵם בְּבִקְעַת מְגִדּוֹ.22 Nevertheless Josiah would not turn his face from him, but disguised himself, that he might fight with him, and hearkened not unto the words of Neco, from the mouth of God, and came to fight in the valley of Megiddo

 
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Yes possibly - or he wasn't Pharoah until the Pharoah whose daughter he married died. Then he becomes Siamun.

'Solomon' was really called Jedediah, so Solomon was a name given to him after, as would happen if he were made Pharoah.
I had to wonder why he was given five names, like the fivefold titulary of a pharaoh?

"His real name was Jedidiah, the "friend of God", but it was superseded by the name Solomon on account of the peace that prevailed throughout the realm during his reign. He bore three other names besides: Ben, Jakeh, and Ithiel. He was called Ben because he was the builder of the temple; Jakeh, because he was the ruler of the whole world; and Ithiel, because God was with him".
The Legends of the Jews, Ginzberg, vol. IV, p.125, 1987.
 
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So when a series of stories about the Judean royal family begins to be written somewhere between 700-500 AD, a process interrupted by the Assyrian invasion, and the subsequent Babylonian takeover, and is then compiled into a book which creates a very anti-Egyptian narrative, we have to look at the sources for this, knowing they are then edited to make sense in a larger narrative.
There's a difference between oral transmission and literary transmission, just like the difference between compiling ancient stories and creating new ones.
There's little doubt the book we call the Bible was beginning to be put together in the mid 1st millennium BC, but that does not mean the stories were created in the 1st millennium BC.
We know some sections of the O.T. were oral, though we do not know for how long. Also some words and phrases are in archaic Hebrew, similar to what we find in the 13th century texts at Ugarit.
Trying to determine the age of the Bible is a complex matter, with no easy answers.
And, I'm a devout atheist.

Aside from the above, I don't think SiAmun was the direct inspiration for Solomon, the character may have been based on a pharaoh, but no particular one.
 
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That is probably just a coincidence. What are the chances that the Hebrews even knew or remembered Siamun when they wrote about Solomon in the 600s or 500s BC.


I mean it could be. But why can't it just be that they made up a character? That is a thing I never got. Why are there so many theories that a mythical character was based on a real person? Maybe they just made it up. In 5,000 years someone is going to claim that Spiderman was based on a real person or something. I think they made up a character, but incorporated elements of Ashurbanipal and potentially Cyrus's character into this fictional Solomon figure. Not that many of the events of the story were based on anything.
The Hebrews didn't write the story, the Egyptians would have written about Siamun. The Hebrews have few historical records. Not many parts of the Bible are written in older Hebrew, mainly the Song of Deborah and Exodus.

Could the character have been made up out of thin air? Not likely.

The aim was to create an association with authority. Far more likely a known historical name gets associated with a far more successful historical name in order to give them more authority.

Invention - in historical settings - is usually used to explain otherwise inexplicable features of nature and human industry. How were an ancient city's walls smashed? Hercules. How did those stars get in the sky? The gods put a hero there.

Old stories are used to validate kingdoms. Both Rome and Britain claimed to have been founded by escapees of Troy, for example.
 
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