Makedonians were not Greek?

Anna James said:

So, what? The dynasty is with what a people enter history anyway. The Macedonians were being accepted as such since 500 BC, when they entered history, this is what matters.
Of course, we can go around in circles like that to the end of time. I don't see why I have to continue to bring sources and details, when actually they are not taken for what they are, but reasons are searched for they to be minimized. Keep your opinion, I will keep mine.

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No, AJ; you are going around circles, seemingly to the end of time indeed.

The bare and evident truth from the very beginning has been that Herodotos unequivocally reported that the Makedonians were for any reason not accepted to the Olympic games.

That's exactly why the ruling Argead dynasty ought to argue that they even remotely (in fact, legendarily) came from a bona fide Hellenic polis.

Any number of red herrings (even thousands) are not going to change that easy objective fact.

And amazing as it may sound, that ancient report is by any standard not any obstacle for considering nowadays the Makedonians of any time as Greek as anyone here or elsewhere may like to.

The purported cultural & genetic descendants of Megas Alexandros & Co. here or elsewhere can of course stop holding their breaths and rest assured that poor ol' Herodotos definitively did perform no molecular genetic testing to evidentiate the potential links between the Balkan populations.

I think we are drifting away from the OP.

beorna said:

yes, I showed pictures of both periods to show, that old egyptians weren't black, but look very similar to modern ones. Do you have a different opinion?

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Yes I do, but back to you...


So how do you say this here about the Greeks:

This is the 21st century! The Greeks today are no ancient Hellenes. They passed a lot of migrations and historical events, they were conquered by Romans, by Osmans, a lot of Slavs migrated there. "We are Greeks since 3500 or 4000 years" is a patriotic nonsense!

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But on the other hand say the Egyptians now looked like the Egyptians of old? This is suspect reasoning.

A passage in book five of Herodotus' Histories concerns the exclusion of Macedonians from [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panhellenic_Games"]panhellenic events[/ame] such as the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Olympic_Games"]ancient Olympic Games[/ame],[12] where only Greeks were allowed to participate. In [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/504_BC"]504[/ame] or [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/500_BC"]500 BC[/ame], the Macedonian king [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_I_of_Macedon"]Alexander I[/ame] attempted to participate in the Olympic Games but was met with resistance by some competitors, who regarded him as non-Greek. According to Herodotus, Alexander argued that his family was of Greek [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argos"]Argive[/ame] descent and the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellanodikai"]Hellanodikai[/ame] (literally judges of the Greeks) validated his claim to enable participation of Macedonians in Olympic events. Other kings of Macedonia such as [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archelaus_I_of_Macedon"]Archelaus I[/ame] and [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_II_of_Macedon"]Philip II[/ame], as well as commoners, also took part in the Games.[13]
Additionally, a 5th century BC inscription found in royal tomb at [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergina"]Vergina[/ame] shows evidence that Macedonian kings competed in [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argive"]Argive[/ame] [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hera"]Heraean[/ame] games.[14] [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amyntas_III_of_Macedon"]Amyntas III[/ame] in 371 BC took also part in a Panhellenic congress, concerning [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphipolis"]Amphipolis[/ame]. From the age of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perdiccas_III_of_Macedon"]Perdiccas III[/ame] 365 BC onwards, who served as [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theorodokoi"]Theorodokos[/ame], participation of Macedonian athletes in [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panhellenic_Games"]Panhellenic Games[/ame] and festivals became common.


[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonians]Ancient Macedonians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Ancients considered Macedonians to be foreign to Greeks? Really?

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus"]Herodotus[/ame], in his work Histories, talks about the origin of the Macedonian royal house, the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argead_dynasty"]Argead dynasty[/ame], from the city of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argos"]Argos[/ame], in the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloponnese"]Peloponnese[/ame], and the lineage of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temenus"]Temenus[/ame], a descendant of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracles"]Heracles[/ame], thus they were also known as Temenids.[3] He also writes that the Macedonians were a [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks"]Greek[/ame] tribe from which the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorians"]Dorians[/ame] originated;[4][5] in another part, [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_I_of_Macedon"]Alexander I of Macedon[/ame] is presented to name himself the Greek viceroy of Macedonia while speaking to the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_people"]Persians[/ame][6] and also being by ancient descent a Greek while speaking to the Athenians.[7]
Pausanias, in his work Description of Greece, states that the Macedonians took part in the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphictyonic_League"]Amphictyonic League[/ame], which was an association of ancient Greek tribes formed to protect a specific temple or sacred place. In [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/356_BC"]356 BC[/ame], when [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocis"]Phocians[/ame] captured and sacked [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphi"]Delphi[/ame] and a [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Sacred_War"]sacred war[/ame] was declared against them, they were expelled from the league and their two votes were given to Macedonians who had helped to defeat them.[8]
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polybius"]Polybius[/ame], in his work The Histories, describes the treaty made between [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal"]Hannibal[/ame] and [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_V_of_Macedon"]Philip V of Macedon[/ame], clearly stating that Macedonia was a part of what he perceived as Greece and that Macedonians were Greeks.[9] He also includes in his work the speech of Lyciscus the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acarnania"]Acarnanian[/ame] who, addressing to Cleonicus and Chlaeneas, the Aetolian envoys at the assembly of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta"]Sparta[/ame], refers to the racial kinship between [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aetolian_League"]Aetolians[/ame], [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaean_League"]Achaeans[/ame] and Macedonians.[10]
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livy"]Livy[/ame], in his work The History of Rome, states that the Macedonians spoke the same language as the Aetolians and the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acarnanians"]Acarnanians[/ame], although trivial causes occasionally unite or disunite them, because Greeks always fight each other.[11]


[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonians]Ancient Macedonians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Thessalonian said:

I think we are drifting away from the OP.

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In fact, I must conclude that we are coming now as close to the OP as it has never been feasible all along this thread.

National identities (in fact the vast majority of collective identities) are inherently extremely subjective.

There's no way any people here or elsewhere may be able to prevent any modern national from considering the Classical equivalent of Timur as much their own kind as they may choose to.

BTW, it is my humble impression that hardly any one of the regular posters of this or any other related thread would actually pretend to prove the opposite.

Talking just for me, trust me; I couldn't care any less.

In 19th century scholarship, some scholars argued that the Macedonians possibly had an [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians"]Illyrian[/ame] or [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians"]Thracian[/ame] rather than a Greek origin. Professor [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Mitchell_Ramsay"]William Mitchell Ramsay[/ame] considered the Macedonians as a tribe of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrace"]Thrace[/ame], the land north-east of Greece, akin to the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians"]Thracians[/ame]. [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Rawlinson"]George Rawlinson[/ame], stated that the Macedonians were a mixed race, not [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paionia"]Paionians[/ame], Illyrians or Thracians, but of the three, closest with the Illyrians. Various "mixed" scenarios (e.g. Greco-Illyrian) have also been proposed.[16][17]
Following the archaeological discoveries of the 20th century, numerous modern scholars now advocate that the ancient Macedonians were of Greek origin which to this day remains the most common consensus.[18] Systematic excavations at [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiani"]Aiani[/ame] since 1983 have brought to light finds that attest the existence of an organised city from the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_millennium_BC"]2nd millennium BC[/ame] to 100 BC. The excavations have unearthed the oldest pieces of black-and-white pottery, characteristic of the tribes of northwest Greece, discovered so far.[19][20] Found with [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greece"]Μycenaean[/ame] [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherd"]sherds[/ame], they can be dated with certainty to the 14th century BC.[19][20] The findings also include some of the oldest samples of writing in Macedonia, among them inscriptions bearing Greek names like Θέμιδα (Themida). The inscriptions demonstrate that the society of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Macedonia"]Upper Macedonia[/ame] spoke and wrote Greek before the 5th century BC.[19] Other scholars, such as Nicholas Hammond, argue that the language of the ancient Macedonians was a pure but specific form of Greek until 4th century BC when it was eventually amalgamated with common Greek.[21]


[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonians"]Ancient Macedonians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

sylla1 said:

In fact, I must conclude that we are coming now as close to the OP as it has never been feasible all along this thread.

National identities (in fact the vast majority of collective identities) are inherently extremely subjective.

There's no way any people here or elsewhere may be able to prevent any modern national from considering the Classical equivalent of Timur as much their own kind as they may choose to.

BTW, it is my humble impression that hardly any one of the regular posters of this or any other related thread would actually pretend to prove the opposite.

Talking just for me, trust me; I couldn't care any less.

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I referred to the dispute regarding Egypt. Egypt is not the issue, here.

Thessalonian said:

Ancients considered Macedonians to be foreign to Greeks? Really?

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Thess, for once, please read my last post carefully.

There's nothing there related to your last two posts; you're simply answering the question that nobody asked.

Thessalonian said:

I referred to the dispute regarding Egypt. Egypt is not the issue, here.

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Nope; amazing as it may sound, the now remote OP is (SIC):

Makedonians were not Greek?

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sylla1 said:

Thess, for once, please read my last post carefully.

There's nothing there related to your last two posts; you're simply answering the question that nobody asked.

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I did not refer to you....The question was asked before, many times!

sylla1 said:

Nope; amazing as it may sound, the now remote OP is (SIC):

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Yes, I went back to the OP, as everyone else should.

philhellene said:

I think I understand your point, but that sounds like clever sophistry to me. Clearly, there is a much better case in the case of ancient Makedonian Greekness than many other claims, including the claim that Makedonians were Albanians, Slavs, or Bulgars.

And modern nationalities are expressly beyond the bounds of this OP, I know because I'm its author and I said I wanted to avoid that.

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I'm well aware of your explicit commendable original expectations for this thread; I'm just objectively dealing with the thread in its current status; irrespectively of what you or me may like, modern nationalities have patently been within its bounds from hundreds of posts ago.

BTW, in full agreement with your own original explicit instructions, I definitively couldn't be any less interested in discussing the potential sophistry of any modern national claims.

Emilio Primo said:

Yes I do, but back to you...


So how do you say this here about the Greeks:



But on the other hand say the Egyptians now looked like the Egyptians of old? This is suspect reasoning.

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do you think, that Slavs and all the others look different? I didn't say at all, that old Greeks look different to modern Greeks.

beorna said:

I didn't say at all, that old Greeks look different to modern Greeks.

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Thank God (Zeus that is) for that!

beorna said:

do you think, that Slavs and all the others look different?

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OK, so you are saying that due to immigration and invasion of Egypt that they're Language changed, they're religion changed, the name of they're land changed, they're entire culture changed but they're appearance remained consistent?

Is this what you are saying?

I didn't say at all, that old Greeks look different to modern Greeks.

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So what are you saying then? Why aren't the Greeks the same now as the ancients?

Thessalonian said:

In 19th century scholarship, some scholars argued that the Macedonians possibly had an Illyrian or Thracian rather than a Greek origin. Professor William Mitchell Ramsay considered the Macedonians as a tribe of Thrace, the land north-east of Greece, akin to the Thracians. George Rawlinson, stated that the Macedonians were a mixed race, not Paionians, Illyrians or Thracians, but of the three, closest with the Illyrians. Various "mixed" scenarios (e.g. Greco-Illyrian) have also been proposed.[16][17]
Following the archaeological discoveries of the 20th century, numerous modern scholars now advocate that the ancient Macedonians were of Greek origin which to this day remains the most common consensus.[18] Systematic excavations at Aiani since 1983 have brought to light finds that attest the existence of an organised city from the 2nd millennium BC to 100 BC. The excavations have unearthed the oldest pieces of black-and-white pottery, characteristic of the tribes of northwest Greece, discovered so far.[19][20] Found with Μycenaean sherds, they can be dated with certainty to the 14th century BC.[19][20] The findings also include some of the oldest samples of writing in Macedonia, among them inscriptions bearing Greek names like Θέμιδα (Themida). The inscriptions demonstrate that the society of Upper Macedonia spoke and wrote Greek before the 5th century BC.[19] Other scholars, such as Nicholas Hammond, argue that the language of the ancient Macedonians was a pure but specific form of Greek until 4th century BC when it was eventually amalgamated with common Greek.[21]


Ancient Macedonians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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But Aiani is not in Emathia, but in Elimea. The origins lay, as far as we know in Emathia. But I wouldn't reject migrations from North-western Greeks to Emathia completely. The problem is just, that we have no evidence for it, as far as we know. But such hypothetical migrations could explain the North-western dialect, if Pella is a proof for a Greek Makedonian language

Emilio Primo said:

Originally Posted by beorna
do you think, that Slavs and all the others look different?

OK, so you are saying that due to immigration and invasion of Egypt that they're Language changed, they're religion changed, the name of they're land changed, they're entire culture changed but they're appearance remained consistent?

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Have you ever seen Turks. Turkic origins lay around the Altai and east of Baikal. So they originally had a good part of mongolide types among. Do modern Turks look like Mongoles? No, some do, but most look like the native population of Asia minor looked like since milleniums. So modern turks have an jewish-arabic religion, a turk-mongolic language but are genetically and from their habitus Little Asians.
That's as well the fact with Egypt. Greeks are mediterranians as well. the smaller number of "blond" Greeks was soon "wiped out" by darker dominance. And Arabs aren't completely ethnical different too and as well do they speak a afro-asiatic language.

Emilio Primo said:

Is this what you are saying?

Originally Posted by beorna
I didn't say at all, that old Greeks look different to modern Greeks.

So what are you saying then? Why aren't the Greeks the same now as the ancients?

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I said they don't look different. Perhaps, I have no data about it, I must look, if I can find some, they are even genetical similar. But especially because those nations who lived before the Greeks there and later migrations are genetically and from habitus not really different, modern greeks don't look different. So if e.g. Germans would be replaced by Danes or Swedes you wouldn't see this in the faces!