Makedonians were not Greek?

beorna said:

1)you are suffering of common paranoia!
2)you have no idea of dynamic processes
3)and again you suffer of FYROMophobia

To question the greek origins of the Makedonians doesn't steal them from your HOLY history. To let the greeks or indo-europeans migrate to Greece in the 3rd or 2nd millenium isn't an attack on your HOLY history. To lay the origins of the hellenes into the 7th century or around it, isn't an attack on your HOLY history.

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Clemmie said:

The Greek alphabet is descended from the Phoenician alphabet, and is not related to Linear B or the Cypriot syllabary, earlier writing systems for Greek.

Wikipedia.



Greek alphabet, pronunciation and language



Greek Alphabet

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Thessalonian said:

1) you suffer from common ignorance and Black Athena conspiracy theories. You also suffer from obsession.
2) you have no idea of syncretism
3) and again you suffer from reality denial. I show you clear archaeological evidence and you try to avoid it. Anna James, Psellos, Macedon, Philhellene and others do not suffer from paranoia. Perhaps you should consider that something is wrong with your bias and your obsession.

Again you are the paranoid who talks about HOLY history. Did I ever mention that nonsense? No, it all comes from your part.

Your obsession is clear. You cannot understand that archaeology proves that the Hellenic civilization is much older than you think (7th BC century)

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Thessalonian said:

I am afraid that you only show one side. Wikipedia as a free encyclopedia allows the other side (NOT THIS REVISIONISM) to appear as well
Hyginus' account

Hyginus recounts the following legend about the introduction of Phoenician letters to Greece:

The three Fates created the first five vowels of the alphabet and the letters B and T. It is said that Palamedes, son of Nauplius invented the remaining eleven consonants. Then Hermes reduced these sounds to characters, showing wedge shapes because cranes fly in wedge formation and then carried the system from Greece to Egypt*. This was the Pelasgian alphabet, which Cadmus had later brought to Boeotia, then Evander of Arcadia, a Pelasgian, introduced into Italy, where his mother, Carmenta, formed the familiar fifteen characters of the Latin alphabet. Other consonants have since been added to the Greek alphabet. Alpha was the first of eighteen letters, because alphe means honor, and alphainein is to invent.[7]
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[edit] Diodorus' account

Some ancient Greek scholars argued that the Greek alphabet should not be attributed to the Phoenician alphabet. Diodorus Siculus in his Historical Library, Book 5, suggests that the Phoenicians merely changed the form and shape of earlier letters:

But there are some who attribute the invention of letters to the Syrians, from whom the Phoenicians learned them and communicated them to the Greeks when they came with Cadmus into Europe; hence the Greeks called them Phoenician letters. To these that hold this opinion, it is answered that the Phoenicians were not the first that found out letters, but only changed the form and shape of them into other characters, which many afterwards using the name of Phoenicians grew to be common.
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[edit] Plutarch's account

In his book On the malice of Herodotus, Plutarch criticizes Herodotus for prejudice and misrepresentation. Furthermore, he argues that Gephyraei were Euboeans or Eretrians and he doubts the reliability of Herodotus' sources.

As for Aristogeiton, Herodotus puts him not forth at the back door, but thrusts him directly out of the gate into Phoenicia, saying that he had his origins from the Gephyraei, and that the Gephyraei were not, as some think, Euboeans or Eretrians, but Phoenicians, as himself has learned by report.


History of the Greek alphabet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



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beorna said:

1) Oh, yes, I forgot your Black Athena paranoia
2) I understand syncretism. You are the one, who seem to deny it for the greeks
3) Beside anna, all of them are greek and probably FYROM-battle-used

All your postings about Greeks are base on chauvinistic ideas. I just remember the thread in which I questioned the number of Makedonians and persians, where you wanted to have the number of Makedonians as low as possible and the number of enemies as high as possible, to show the glory of the Greeks! You deny, against all the main historian community, that the Greek alphabet derived from an Phoenician alphabet, you deny any eastern or african influence (just see the Black Athena, only you are talking about) and here, about the Makedonians it is the same.

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beorna said:

Oh, yes, sorry! The Moirans and hermes gave you the alphabet. How could I believe something else?

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Thessalonian said:

1) it is your favourite book
2) I mentioned 1000 times that Greeks were influenced by other civilizations.
3) No. Philhellene is 0% Greek. He is American. No Greek ancestry at all.

There is nothing chauvinistic about examining the numbers that ancient historians give us. In fact, I accepted the modern consensus which suggests that Persians were at least 2 or 3 times more than Greeks in battles like Marathon or Platae. You stand corrected, once again. Macedonians were clearly outnumbered by Persians. Do you deny that too???????????

If I accepted (contrary to what ancient scholars) that the Greek alphabet was based upon the Phoenician, I and You would have to accept the single truth: The Greek alphabet is so different from the Phoenician, in terms of appearance and sounds, that Phoenicians only inspired the Greeks, nothing more. If you wanna talk about copy-paste alphabets you'd better talk about Greek and Latin.

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Clemmie said:

No one said they were identical. Just that the Greek alphabet was derived from the Phoenician. There is no question, the Greeks changed it and improved it. It doesn't have to be "identical in every way" to derive from the Phoenician.

But I'm going to bow out. It's like tilting with windmills to argue with you. You won't accept anyone else's arguments; yours are the only valid arguments and facts.

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beorna said:

1) I never read it, but what I know about is, let me suppose, that I don't agree with at least parts of it. I already told you BTW.
2) But just a bit, isn't it?
3) That's something you should discuss with sylla. But as you perhaps know, is "philhellene" used in both cases, for Greeks and for foreigners. For the origins of the makedonians it has less significance.

Yes, everybody can see, that Phoenician and Greek are absolutely different, of course, what else?

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Thessalonian said:

At least accept that it is only a HYPOTHESIS that Phoenicians actually invented that controversial alphabet that even ancient scholars very much doubt. How can you take something for granted, when ancient historians very much doubted? They lived relatively close to that era and doubted it!
You live 3000 years later, and you think can be more certain than them????

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Thessalonian said:

1) You seem to agree with the core of that book. You may disagree with some parts of it, but you perfectly adopt its philosophy and concept of Greeks being Afro-Asian wannabe....

2) in most cases, proven influence is limited. The only obvious influence is in Minoan palaces and some Aegean artefacts. Regarding philosophy and science, there is no proof but only speculations. And again syncretism is an unknown word to you....

3) that's irrelevant.

The alphabet debate is off-topic. I will only post two files.

Phoenician alphabet

One of the Greek alphabets....

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Thessalonian said:

At least accept that it is only a HYPOTHESIS that Phoenicians actually invented that controversial alphabet that even ancient scholars very much doubt. How can you take something for granted, when ancient historians very much doubted? They lived relatively close to that era and doubted it!
You live 3000 years later, and you think can be more certain than them????

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beorna said:

oh, yes, sorry, you're right. completely different!

Look, there is no similarity betwen all these alphabets

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Thessalonian said:

Not even close.....

On the other hand,

Standard Greek Α Β Γ Δ Ε Ϝ Ζ Η Θ Ι Κ Λ Μ Ν Ξ Ο Π Ϻ Ϙ Ρ Σ Τ Υ – Φ Χ Ψ Ω
Latin A B C/G D E F – H – I K L M N – O P – Q R S T V X – – –
This is close. Semitic letters are completely different....

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sylla1 said:

With all due respect, you must be kidding.
By such yardstick, any historical knowledge would be just "hypothesis" (or "guessers", in the words of a fellow Historumite); your double standard couldn't be any more obvious, the same as your crystal clear motivations.

Please show here the linguistic authorities that may find "controversial" the Middle Eastern origin of most if not all alphabets; I don't think that even our Psellos or AJ would be in that group.

If you really want a controversial idea, the bizarre .... hellenicus some posts ago would be a far better example.
Unsurprisingly, you had no problem in blindly accepting it.

And your last argument of your last post is plainly absurd; scholars today know lights years more linguistics than 3,000 years ago (if you can call their knowledge "linguistics" at all); you simply ought to check let say the superb posts of our Patito de Hule.

Hint: so far, the main strength of the Greek side on the never-ending dispute with the FYROM has been the strict use of hard evidence.
Once you try to advance gratuitous speculations, such advantage is entirely lost.
Ergo, gratuitously twisting epistemology would actually help the other side of this "debate", not yours.

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beorna said:

Just for the blind ones

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Thessalonian said:

.... Hellenicus was your own bizzare idea, not mine. I never spoke of Greeks from 500,000 BC. I spoke of human beings.

Regarding the origin of alphabets, it is more complicated than your over-simplistic East to West theory. For more information compare different alphabets of antiquity....

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