Mighty Scythians of Gujarat/Western Satraps !

Joined Jan 2019
371 Posts | 236+
Valencia
So use the report function to bring it to the moderators' attention. Don't perpetuate the issue by engaging with it in the thread.
Why is this specifically addressed to me and not the many other people that engaged with this thread? What have I done specifically to incur your ire that others on this thread haven’t?
 
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Joined Apr 2018
2,506 Posts | 1,542+
India
The front part of Shiva's neck is blue. He drank the worst-eve poison to save the world. As for skin color, that is not detailed. Fair/dark and dusky (Krishna's skin-color, Ghana-Shyam, like the rain-laden clouds). Rudra, the Aryan God who merged with Shiva was fair and a red-head (Babhru, Ruddy). Afghanistan and North-West India was once an Aryan land after they moved South from Central Asia, Oxus valley till Alexander's time (Alexandria Ariana - Herat, North of Delhi - Aryavarta, Brahmavarta, etc.).
Shiva worship probably originated in South India.
I always thought this blue color is somehow related to Parjanya. But my knowledge is near zero.
 
Joined Aug 2016
12,409 Posts | 8,403+
Dispargum
Why is this specifically addressed to me and not the many other people that engaged with this thread? What have I done specifically to incur your ire that others on this thread haven’t?
Because you're the one who got my attention with your talk of "weird skin colors." I wasn't the only one who interpreted your phrasing that way. 'Weird obsession with skin color' would have been better.
 
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Joined Jul 2017
619 Posts | 88+
Sydney
Names of first western kshatrapas are definitely non-indic,they have been reffered as being Scythian by roman sources and indians sources IIRC,at this point the Evidence for Western and northern kshtrapas being non Indic who were later indianized is overwhelming.
Doesn't make sense in light of the other work (mostly ignored) of the German school showing early colonization of Tarim basin area by people out of the same area (Sindh and NW India) Uttambhadras are supposed to have entered from
 
Joined Jul 2017
619 Posts | 88+
Sydney
Doesn't make sense in light of the other work (mostly ignored) of the German school showing early colonization of Tarim basin area by people out of the same area (Sindh and NW India) Uttambhadras are supposed to have entered from
When we consider the early colonisation of the Tarim basin by Indian groups, we start to realise that Scythians had Indian ancestry at the very base. This is corroborated by the similarities (recovered archaeological objects) between Gandharan grave culture and dominant Scythian groups @Zanis
 
Joined Jul 2017
619 Posts | 88+
Sydney
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@Zanis the names can be extremely misleading. Take for instance the case of Phrom Kesar, an extremely famous character from bardic tradition of Central Asia all the way to Mongolia.

The first time I saw the name Phrom Kesar, I immediately recognised Brahma Kesari in it but if you check other experts' views, people have claimed it to be something as distant as Rome Caesar, haha
 
Joined Feb 2015
7,536 Posts | 1,053+
Germany
@Zanis
The first time I saw the name Phrom Kesar, I immediately recognised Brahma Kesari in it but if you check other experts' views, people have claimed it to be something as distant as Rome Caesar, haha
Lol seriously .. but other than that it has nothing do with Caesar? It could be .. just a coincidence ..
 
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Joined Jul 2017
619 Posts | 88+
Sydney
Lol seriously .. but other than that it has nothing do with Caesar? It could be .. just a coincidence ..
Very true! It has nothing to do with Caesar. As I said, the word Kesar in the name Phrom Kesar has to do with the word for saffron in Indo Iranian tongues. Although, Iranians now say zaffran but the Old Persian and Sanskrit version was Kesar.

The entire name Phrom Kesar can be comfortably understood in Indo Iranian as Brahma Kesari, which would mean knowledgeable lion (sometimes the Kesar from saffron is seen to have leonine connotations). Can also mean universal lion if the Brahma in the name is taken to have universal connotation, as Brahmand is universe
 
Joined Apr 2018
2,157 Posts | 371+
Bharat
When we consider the early colonisation of the Tarim basin by Indian groups, we start to realise that Scythians had Indian ancestry at the very base. This is corroborated by the similarities (recovered archaeological objects) between Gandharan grave culture and dominant Scythian groups @Zanis
Can you refer the German work to me?from what I can understand you are saying that "Scythians" that invaded India were actually Indians who went to scythia and were scythianized and their descendants invaded India and were subsequently indianized,is this correct?
 
Joined Jul 2017
619 Posts | 88+
Sydney
Can you refer the German work to me?from what I can understand you are saying that "Scythians" that invaded India were actually Indians who went to scythia and were scythianized and their descendants invaded India and were subsequently indianized,is this correct?
No, there was no Scythian invasion of India. All the kings depicted as Indo-Scythian were pretty much the same stock that had gone into the steppes between the 10th to 15th century BC. We are able to see the exit point out of the subcontinent in the Gandharan grave culture.

The easiest way to understand this is the name Samarkand, it means stone or pebble (Rori or Ror) + kand (kot or fort).

Essentially, if you check out the Kushan Empire this was one of their strongholds and the same for the other dynasties dominating that part of the world before Iran fell to the Arabs.

This domination of that part of Central Asia by India specific groups continued till Hephthalite (Hepht or Sapta + Al or Arya), which can be put in Indo Aryan as SaptArya (known as SaatRor in Haryanvi folklore).
 
Joined Jul 2017
619 Posts | 88+
Sydney
The legend of Gesar or Phrom Kesar (Brahma Kesari) fully supports this understanding that I've described in the previous post
 
Joined Apr 2018
2,506 Posts | 1,542+
India
Parjanya (Indra) is Perun. I have not come across any description of Parjanya having being blue skin-color.
I actually read that in 'Rupmanjari', a semi historical fiction novel by Bengali writer Narayan Sanyal. It's not something to be considered history but Sanyal's historical novels (there aren't many) are usually well researched. Probably he himself has built upon the fact that Parjanya was the lord of clouds and rain.

On the internet I remember reading somewhere that his skin color is either dark green or red. No idea about the source.
 
Joined Jun 2014
8,371 Posts | 1,168+
New Delhi, India
No, there was no Scythian invasion of India. All the kings depicted as Indo-Scythian were pretty much the same stock that had gone into the steppes between the 10th to 15th century BC. We are able to see the exit point out of the subcontinent in the Gandharan grave culture.

The easiest way to understand this is the name Samarkand, it means stone or pebble (Rori or Ror) + kand (kot or fort).

Essentially, if you check out the Kushan Empire this was one of their strongholds and the same for the other dynasties dominating that part of the world before Iran fell to the Arabs.

This domination of that part of Central Asia by India specific groups continued till Hephthalite (Hepht or Sapta + Al or Arya), which can be put in Indo Aryan as SaptArya (known as SaatRor in Haryanvi folklore).
Chauvinist Hindu Casteist (ROR, ROR, ROR) Stuff. No link or evidence. Deprecated.
 
Joined Jun 2014
8,371 Posts | 1,168+
New Delhi, India
I actually read that in 'Rupmanjari', a semi historical fiction novel by Bengali writer Narayan Sanyal.
On the internet I remember reading somewhere that his skin color is either dark green or red. No idea about the source.
Not enough evidence. Perun, Parjanya, Twastr, Thor, IMHO, were the words used when the Indo-Europeans were in Pontic Steppes, their starting point for later expansions. By the time Aryans came to India, it was Indra. If these names were used later, that may be because of rhyming.
 
Joined Feb 2020
1,499 Posts | 682+
Gurjaradesa
Can you refer the German work to me?from what I can understand you are saying that "Scythians" that invaded India were actually Indians who went to scythia and were scythianized and their descendants invaded India and were subsequently indianized,is this correct?
There is no source.
 
Joined Jul 2017
619 Posts | 88+
Sydney
There is no source.
Just because @dagoat1000 thinks there's no source doesn't mean there is no source @Zanis

The German work useful to understand Tarim basin establishment of Loulan (Raurana in Khotanese) is called 'Beitrage zur geschichte und geographie Von Ostturkestan' by Prof Luders.

If you want, I could provide you a link as well; managed to find it through some obscure German website.

BTW, even though we don't discuss genetics, I'll briefly say it is in support of Luders' findings related to Indian (Haryanvi and Sindhi mostly) input into the Tarim basin.

A second good source is Sten Konow's "Roruka and Chinese Turkestan". I have this book, Konow shows that the Prakrit documents found in East Turkestan are of a North West Indian character
 
Joined Jul 2017
619 Posts | 88+
Sydney
Chauvinist Hindu Casteist (ROR, ROR, ROR) Stuff. No link or evidence. Deprecated.
There's better evidence than the opposite scenario of Scythian input into India. You don't seem to read my posts carefully or with respect as you are applying a pre-conceived notion as your filter while receiving my theories
 
Joined Feb 2020
1,499 Posts | 682+
Gurjaradesa
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Just because @dagoat1000 thinks there's no source doesn't mean there is no source @Zanis

The German work useful to understand Tarim basin establishment of Loulan (Raurana in Khotanese) is called 'Beitrage zur geschichte und geographie Von Ostturkestan' by Prof Luders.

If you want, I could provide you a link as well; managed to find it through some obscure German website.

BTW, even though we don't discuss genetics, I'll briefly say it is in support of Luders' findings related to Indian (Haryanvi and Sindhi mostly) input into the Tarim basin.

A second good source is Sten Konow's "Roruka and Chinese Turkestan". I have this book, Konow shows that the Prakrit documents found in East Turkestan are of a North West Indian character
You don’t even know the name of the German Work. I mean “obsecure german website”.
 

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