Most humiliating military defeat in your countries history

jeroenrottgering · Jun 27, 2012

What was the most humiliating defeat in your countries in your opinion. Your answer can be based on the number of deaths, the way in which it was fought, the horror. Anything you want, but do explain when you give your answer.

For me it's the surrender to Nazi-Germany after five days of fighting. Our government had cut so much on our military that soldiers used weapons from the First World War, wore uniforms from decades ago, had no tank regiments, and the mentality of the Dutch was that of more then a century of peace. It is true that Hitler expected to overrun the Netherlands in one day, but still quite sad. On the other side what could we do when the Germans threatened to do the same to The Hague, Amsterdam etc as they did to Rotterdam.

A second option for me is the Fourth Anglo Dutch war. The once mighty and dominant Dutch navy. Who dominated the European waters for over a century were in one swift war reduced to a secondary naval power. Britain definatly took over the position of the Dutch. We would remain a strong naval power, but never as strong as we once were.

What about you?

Diced · Jun 27, 2012

The Dutch assumed the opposing forces would respect the neutrality of the Netherlands like they did in the first world war. They were wrong.

Also I don't see how it was humiliating, if we had been the only ones to be conquered so rapidly it might have been humiliating, however look at Poland and even France. We fought as best we could with the, as you mentioned, obsolete weapons we had. After the bombing of Rotterdam it would have been insane to continue the fight.

So, I would agree on your second option more than the first, I simply fail to see how it was humiliating.

camstewart96 · Jun 27, 2012

Dunkirk

For me, as a Brit, I think it would have to be Dunkirk, the British had promised so much to the world, claiming how they would stop the Evil Nazi Empire along with France. But within just eight months, the French had been forced to surrender and falling into Nazi Occupation and the British feeling back to Great Britain. Despite the War Propaganda that was made from it, it was simply a Military Disaster.

I recently went to the Dutch Resistance Museum in Amsterdam not that long ago, and I think you should be proud as a Dutchman for what the Resistance Movement did back then to help the Netherlands (An amazing, beautiful country)

Diced · Jun 27, 2012

Thx, and yes I'm very proud of that. However the resistance movement only started once The Netherlands were formally occupied by Nazi Germany. I still read books on the resistance and the heroism and sacrifice simply amazes me, I dare not say I could be so heroic if there ever comes a day where such actions are required.

Also, Dunkirk, for me was necessary and not humiliating. You successfully managed to retreat your forces to abandon a lost battle to fight another day. Even though it might look humiliating I think of it more as cutting your losses. Look at Hitler and his 6th army in Stalingrad. Besides the military catastrophe he literally signed their death sentence.

One specific example of the tragic fate of the German POWs was after the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad"]Battle of Stalingrad[/ame], during which the Soviets captured 91,000 German troops, many already starved and ill, of whom only 5,000 survived the war. [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner_of_war]Prisoner of war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

amazedkat · Jun 27, 2012

thought the dutch were neutral (successfully) during the first world war, so when you say weapons from ww1 do you mean the period or bought as surplus?

ermmm humiliating military defeat.. Mona... ad 60, i mean how many battles end up with your religion being destroyed.

Belisarius · Jun 27, 2012

There have been so many, difficult to choose;
Corunna 1809
The retreat from Kabul 1839
Isandlwana 1879
Dunkirk 1940
Singapore 1942
Iraq 2009

Diced · Jun 27, 2012

Like I said in my previous post, they were neutral. What weapons they did posses were mostly obsolete and completely incapable of successfully defending any invaders with modern arms. Like I said, they assumed the opposing forces would respect Dutch neutrality, so they were completely unprepared for any military conflict. The exact composition of weapons I do not know, all I know is that (most of) it was obsolete.

amazedkat · Jun 27, 2012

Diced said:
Like I said in my previous post, they were neutral. What weapons they did posses were mostly obsolete and completely incapable of successfully defending any invaders with modern arms. Like I said, they assumed the opposing forces would respect Dutch neutrality, so they were completely unprepared for any military conflict. The exact composition of weapons I do not know, all I know is that (most of) it was obsolete.

okay thanks, i was more asking the questioner, but that's fine. the british told you you were going to be invaded. but you didn't believe them huh.. i know, it happens. we told the russians too and guess what they didn't believe us as well.

Larrey · Jun 27, 2012

For Sweden, there might have been a couple more decisive ones (Pultava 1709 for instance), but for humiliation these might do:

Kirkholm, 1605.
Overconfident, underqualified Swedes getting a massive and speedy trouncing by the numerically inferior Poles, who were the attacked party to boot. King Charles IX personally takes a hefty piece of the blame. Regarded as the worst Swedish military defeat before Pultava 1709, except the "Second Polish War" was eventually won, and the "Great Nordic War" lost, and a damn sight more embarassing as defeats go than Pultava.

Or possibly the surrender of Sveaborg Fortress in 1808.
The fortress was the key to any continued Swedes resistance to Russian invasion. It surrendered with the entire Swedish Archipelago Fleet in its harbours, and as it transpired the commander had numerical superiority over the Russian covering force on the shore, and more and heavier guns. The Russians had no siege artillery, and no way of taking the fortress by storm. Still, they kept up a steady nuisence fire using their field artillery, which somehow seriously rattled the Swedish fortress commander. They then invited himto "talks", at which they played on his fears like an instrument, eventually getting a timely surrender of a position they would otherwise had been months and large expenses away form taking by force. Worse, the entire Swedish war-plan hinged on a two pronged summer offensive through northern Finland, and up through southern Finland, with Sveaborg (Suomenlinna) as the necessary stepping-stone. With the forttress gone, needlessly, the entire campaign just became a kind of confused scram, and the war was lost, along with Finland in its entirity.

M.E.T.H.O.D. · Jun 27, 2012

For Italy(in chronological order)

Battle of Lissa(1866)
Extremely poor leadership and no coordination whatsoever between the Italian ships turned a possible victory into an ignominious defeat.
There is also something sinisterly comic in this utter defeat(sailors so excited about the fight that forget to load their cannons)

Battle of Adwa(1896)
The Italians were eager to build up a large colonial empire but their first African campaign was marked by a total humiliation
An Italian army,almost wandering in the Ethiopian soil with no clue(inacurrate maps) was attacked and defeated by 100000 men commanded by the Negus himself.
It's the "Italian Isandlwana"(but we didn't have a Rorke's Drift)

Battle of Caporetto(1917)
Pretty simple: the Italian front line collapsed in a single day after an unexpected Austro-German attack

I'd like to add,even if technically speaking it's not Italy,the fall of the Republic of Venice(1797);the Most Serene Republic gave up without even fighting...There's nothing more dishonourable than that!

PubliusBassus · Jun 27, 2012

In terms of individual battles, it is easily the capture of Washington, DC and the burning of the White House by the British during the War of 1812. The war itself was probably a draw or perhaps a slight American victory, but having the President's house burned is certainly the most humiliating episode when it comes to specific battles.

General Michael Collins · Jun 27, 2012

Has to be the Battle of Kinsale. Probably the most important battle in our history, and we were soundly beaten.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Kinsale]Siege of Kinsale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Tapio the king of forest · Jun 27, 2012

Before year 1150 Finnish farmers and hunters made lots of strikes to Russia. Some of these failed quite badly and then came revenge. Maybe the same amount ended well too though (for example one when Moscow was captured).

The civil war (1917) ended quite badly for the reds (communist rebels). The soldiers just left and went home after taking enough beating.

mofli87 · Jun 27, 2012

though not exactly battle
we were sucked in by the enemy 3 times the same old trick without fight.. :deadhorse:

1541 ottoman occupation of Buda

during the Habsburg-Hungarian war
On August 21 the Ottoman relief army reached Buda and engaged in battle with Roggendorf's army. The Habsburg army was completely defeated and 7,000 men were slaughtered or drowned in the river. Roggendorf was also wounded in the battle and died 2 days after.
The Ottomans occupied the celebrating city with a trick and took the infant King John II hostage.

1944 opertion margarethe

Operation Margarethe I was the occupation of Hungary by German forces in March 1944. The Hungarian government was an ally of Nazi Germany, but had been discussing an armistice with the Allies. German dictator Adolf Hitler found out about these discussions and, feeling betrayed by the Hungarians, ordered German troops to implement Operation Margarethe to capture critical Hungarian facilities.

Hungary's leader, Admiral Miklós Horthy, was invited by Hitler to the palace of Klessheim, outside of Salzburg, Austria on March 15. While they conducted their negotiations, German forces quietly moved into Hungary. Negotiations between Horthy and Hitler lasted until the 18th, when Horthy boarded a train to return home. When he arrived in Budapest, it was German soldiers who greeted him.

1956 Hungarian revolution

On 3 November, a Hungarian delegation led by the Minister of Defense Pál Maléter were invited to attend negotiations on Soviet withdrawal at the Soviet Military Command at Tököl, near Budapest. At around midnight that evening, General Ivan Serov, Chief of the Soviet Security Police (KGB) ordered the arrest of the Hungarian delegation,[123] and the next day, the Soviet army again attacked Budapest.[124]

Fire_Raven · Jun 27, 2012

Battle of Savo Island(1942)

diddyriddick · Jun 27, 2012

Fire_Raven said:
Battle of Savo Island(1942)

Savo Island was certainly not a shining example of the prowess of the US Navy, but most humiliating ever?

betgo · Jun 27, 2012

PubliusBassus said:
In terms of individual battles, it is easily the capture of Washington, DC and the burning of the White House by the British during the War of 1812. The war itself was probably a draw or perhaps a slight American victory, but having the President's house burned is certainly the most humiliating episode when it comes to specific battles.

The burning of Washington, surrender of Detroit, and failed invasions of Canada in the War of 1812. Little Big Horn and St. Claire's defeat against teh Indians. Fredricksburg and some other battles in the Virginia theatre of the Civil War.

tjadams · Jun 27, 2012

First and Second Manassas (1861-62)
Battle of Fredericksburg (1862)
Battle of Chancellorsville (1863)
Pearl Harbor (1941)
Philippines Campaign (1941–1942)

Space Shark · Jun 27, 2012

For America, I'm going to go with either the Vietnam War or the War of 1812.

Major Wilson · Jun 27, 2012

War of 1814 which Sweden won. Didn't take much for them to win neither. It was particulary humiliating since Norway had just claimed independance from Sweden and had written a constitution. The independance lasted only a few weeks, whereafter the constitution had to be rewritten.

German invasion in 1940 is also humiliating mainly because of the lack of will to fight and lack of resources allocated to the armed forces in the years preceeding. The garrison in several places surrendered without putting a decent fight. This was mainly because of lack of political will to defend the country.

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Most humiliating military defeat in your countries history

jeroenrottgering

Diced

camstewart96

Diced

amazedkat

Belisarius

Diced

amazedkat

Larrey

M.E.T.H.O.D.

PubliusBassus

General Michael Collins

Tapio the king of forest

mofli87

Fire_Raven

diddyriddick

betgo

tjadams

Space Shark

Major Wilson

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